Boardroom Conversations with Susan Neuhaus

Season 2 Episode 5: Dr Susan Neuhaus: Leadership lessons from the ADF, governance at the Australian War Memorial and transferring skills from the operating theatre to the boardroom

Dr Susan Neuhaus AM CSC FAICD is a Council Member at the Australian War Memorial, plus a director with Aspen Medical, Medical Insurance Group Australia and Defence Health Limited. She’s also a practising surgeon and had a distinguished 20-year career in the Australian Army and Army Reserve. Susan talks with us about leadership lessons fro m the Australian Defence Force, governance at the Australian War Memorial and transferring skills from the operating theatre to the boardroom

Transcript

BENNETT MASON

Hello and welcome to Boardroom Conversations, a podcast from the Australian Institute of Company Directors. I'm Bennett Mason and thanks so much for listening. In each episode, we'll have candid conversations with some of Australia's top directors, delving into their backgrounds and discussing many of the key issues that boards are grappling with. Our guests this time, I'm pleased to say, is Doctor Susan Newhouse, AM CSC. She's a Council Member at the Australian War Memorial, plus a director with Aspen Medical, Medical Insurance Group Australia and Defence Health Limited. Susan's also a practising surgeon and had a distinguished 20-year career with the Australian Army and Army Reserve. In addition, she's a former national board member with the AICD and a past president of the SA/NT Division Council. Susan, thanks so much for joining us today. Susan, I wanted to start by talking about your military career. You were studying medicine at university when you decided to join the army. How did you make that decision? And what did you find so rewarding about life in the army?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Look, that's a really interesting question. And to be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the deciding factor was. I have in the past referred to it as my moment of temporary insanity, but that's probably not fair. In the 1980s, there was this real sense, and I remember the dean addressing our class at medical school, that most of us would not go on to specialise. So general practice was what 90% of us were doing. And I think I was just looking for something different. At that time, I thought it would probably take me on a course of doing tropical medicine or something exotic. But when I look back, to be fair, I actually don't know what it was that took me on that path. And I certainly had no appreciation at that point about where that decision would take me or the journey that it would lead to over the next couple of decades. So, it's been a really interesting journey, and it's been an immense privilege to be able to go on that journey and to serve in all sorts of different places and different environments.

BENNETT MASON

Now, you spent two decades in the ADF, and you rose to the rank of colonel before you retired. What did you learn about leadership throughout your time with the Defence Force?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Look, the military is an amazing organisation from a leadership perspective, and there's an enormous amount of effort spent teaching people leadership in a very systematised way. There's also the opportunities that you have, particularly as a young person, leading small teams at an early age, where you get to learn your own leadership style. You get to have very firsthand experience of what it is to take a team of people, often in really difficult circumstances, where you can be under enormous pressure, you can be at risk. You can have inadequate resources, and yet you have to manage and lead that teams through that to get the best outcome. And I think those formative experiences at a very early age are really, really powerful. And on top of that, you also get a first-row seat to see some absolutely astounding leaders doing amazing things and to watch people leading a country out of conflict or to watch them deal with very difficult life and death decisions around bodies of soldiers is an extraordinary privilege. And you learn so much from the system of decision making that they apply to that, the ethical frameworks that they use to do that. The way that they deal with the consequences of those decisions. That's an immense learning opportunity and enormous privilege.

BENNETT MASON

Now, when you joined the ADF, female soldiers and I imagine female officers too, might have been less common than they are now. How have you seen that change play out during your military career?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

It's interesting to reflect back because funnily enough, when I joined the Army, there was around about 17% female participation. When I became a fellow of the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons, we were working on an aspirational 5% participation. So, I'll leave it to you to decide which of those two was the more challenging environment at the time. But of course, the ADF has changed completely. All of the roles are now open to women. We have women at our most senior leadership levels, and so it's a very different environment today than it was then.

BENNETT MASON

Do you think there are lessons from a cultural change that's been happening in the military that can be applied to other organisations?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Without doubt there are. I think for me personally, and look everybody's experience is different. But for me personally, I found the ADF and Army in particular to be a very egalitarian institution. It was a merit-based system. If you did your job and you performed well, it really didn't matter whether you were male, female, blue, green or anything else. What mattered is that you could do your job, and what mattered is that you cared about your people. What mattered is you got the outcomes that you were there to do.

BENNETT MASON

Now you've had this extraordinary career in the military, as we just discussed, and also in medicine. That's an unusual background for many Australian directors. We have a lot of actuaries, accountants, lawyers in the boardroom, but maybe not a lot of cancer surgeons and colonels. How do you think your career history and background prepared you for the boardroom, and were there lessons that you carried over?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

It's a really interesting question, and I guess I view it more in the sense of: what are the transferable skills? So, both of those environments have involved leadership. Both of them have involved a really clear sense of strategic focus. What is the outcome that you are trying to achieve and what are the red lines? How do you look at risk? Because risk is quite an interesting thing from a medical perspective, risk is a part of daily life in an operating theatre. How do you prepare for some of those eventualities? What could happen? What are the unseen things that can come downrange at you? What are the consequences of those decisions that you have to make for other people, for yourself? How do you live with those decisions? What are the frameworks you use to construct those? All of those things are kind of similar between both fields.

BENNETT MASON

Now, we've spoken a bit about your military career. I wanted to talk a little bit about some of your board positions. Can you tell us what was your first board role and why did you want to become a director, and why did you want to stay as a director?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Look, I was probably the accidental board director. I was approached to come on board in 2010, the Cancer Council of South Australia. And it was a really formative experience for me. I didn't know a great deal about boards at the time. I was fortunate to be put through the AICD course, which I think was very, very instructive. And I was fortunate to work with an amazingly great team of directors and a fantastic chair who taught me an enormous amount. Very early on, I was given the advice that if you want to understand an organisation, get yourself onto the Audit and Risk Committee. Perhaps not a natural place for me to sit. But nonetheless, it's been really powerful because it is how you understand the DNA of the business, how the business actually works and ticks. And it means that when you come to the board meetings, you’re coming a little bit more informed than perhaps you otherwise would around some of those specific areas. So having gone onto that board, I was then encouraged to do another board role, which was again in the not-for-profit sector, and very much became an accidental chair at a time that was very interesting for that particular organisation, at a time of crisis. And one thing leads to another, and you develop skills and experience. And I think all of that just takes you in a direction that perhaps wasn't necessarily planned. But you can take those learnings from one board to another and gradually improve your skills and so forth.

BENNETT MASON

You mentioned you became chair at a time of crisis for that organisation. Do you think your professional background previously helped you go through that? Your history with the military, your history as a surgeon?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Possibly. Look, it's hard to know what the circumstances were. Where I found myself was that we had a chair who was absent at the time. I was then the deputy chair of the board. I remember that day very vividly because we had a new board director who'd just arrived at the very first meeting. The CEO resigned that day. And I remember just looking at the papers and going: “Oh well, I guess we start at agenda item number one.” And from there on in it was a very interesting time.

BENNETT MASON

Off you went. A lot of ex-service men and women aren't sure exactly what they want to do when they leave the military. What would your advice be for those former ADF personnel who might be considering a board career? How do you think they can best be prepared for a director role?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

I think the advice I'd give would be the advice I'd give to anybody, which is understand what the role involves and educate yourself about what is required. Particularly understand that it's not a role that involves doing. It's a role that involves influence. I think ex-defence people can often bring some incredible skillsets and perspectives that many others perhaps don't have. Particularly when you're talking about really being comfortable in high risk, high stress environments. Being comfortable, often with ambiguity, with not having enough information, and yet still having to use a framework to make decisions and progress things forwards. And of course, they bring an incredible world view. Having mostly had opportunities to spend time in different parts of the world, to see how the world is a very different place, to understand a perspective on society, peace, freedom and all of those things that comes with it. And that brings a very rich skillset to the table.

BENNETT MASON

One of your roles now, as we've said in the intro, is, as a Council Member at the Australian War Memorial and you've been there for many years now. Just about every Australian will be familiar with the War memorial, but they might not know exactly what the Council does. So, could you describe for us what the role of the Council is?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

So, the Council for the Australian War Memorial is effectively the board. So, it has an oversight role in the same way as any board. But its oversight of an extraordinarily iconic Australian institution, which is really at the heart of an enormous value set, an identity set for us as a nation. So, it's a very significant role in terms of its responsibility for custodianship. Custodianship over the service and sacrifice of so many Australians that have died to give us what we've got today. Custodianship over that record. And that's a very deeply powerful and moving responsibility.

BENNETT MASON

The War Memorial holds a special place in Australian culture and Australian society. What do you think are some of the unique governance challenges for the Council?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Look, I think there's the same challenges that are for any cultural institution and any government institution. But on top of that, there's a very unique set of governance requirements to address, particularly in terms of, for example, the redevelopment. This is a once in a generation, very significant redevelopment, and that brings with it a very unique set of governance responsibilities in terms of the accountability, the transparency, the financials, the construction, etc. Also, whilst you're trying to keep the memorial open to visitors for 364 days a year and continue to do that very important role of honouring every individual Australian. So, it's a very unique environment, in which to govern. But the principles of governance are still the same. The principles of understanding what the strategy is, understanding what the vision and responsibilities of the Memorial are, and how do you keep that custodianship of the past whilst moving towards the future. And there's so much in that future box that needs to be addressed in terms of future financial sustainability, etc.

BENNETT MASON

Government boards can often be quite high profile, and they come with a lot of scrutiny because of that, a lot of community focus, a lot of media focus. Is that a challenge at the War Memorial sometimes?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Scrutiny is a part of any board role, and I've certainly found myself in circumstances where I've been involved with boards who've been very subject to public scrutiny. And that is right and proper, because that's what their function is. In the War Memorial, where obviously I was accountable to the PGPA Act. We are accountable to the public, we're accountable to the veterans, we're accountable to their families, and we're accountable to those 102,000 whose names are engraved in the wall. Because at the end of the day, that's a key part of our job, is to honour their service and their sacrifice. So, yes, it is a big box of accountability and that's appropriate.

BENNETT MASON

You mentioned the names on the wall just a second ago. One very special role that the Council has, and many Australians might not be aware of this, is that it's the Council who determine when a name gets added to the board. Those discussions must be extraordinary sometimes. What are they like?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

They can be the most powerful, deeply moving, deeply considered discussions that you could have around a board table. Because fundamentally, they do speak to values. They speak to loss and grief and service. And sometimes they are very challenging. Certainly, over the years there's been a change in the way that the council has approached certain types of situations, particularly around suicide. And they've been very, very challenging discussions.

BENNETT MASON

All boards, all organisations have difficult discussions. These conversations you're having at the War Memorial are obviously particularly emotionally charged. Do you have any advice for directors at other organisations on how to have these difficult conversations, how to resolve them and move forward?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

I think difficult conversations, as you've said, are very much a part of most boards. And it's around understand finding your own values and your own red lines. What is the framework that you're using to make those decisions, and how do you do that collectively? And I think that's very much the role of the chair, is to be able to create that space where people can bring often very different perspectives. And I love the expression of: “You come to the table with a fully formed view, but it's likely held.” And the fact that you were willing to be challenged on your view, the fact that you're open to the reality that other people will have a different perspective, that they will see things from a different lens. And if you have that safe space to have those conversations, then my experiences is you end up with the right result.

BENNETT MASON

Susan, just to return to the War Memorial for a moment. You're the chair of the development committee there. The Memorial has been undergoing a number of very significant building programs over the last few years. Can you describe some of those projects for us?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Sure. The redevelopment is an absolutely nation leading development that is intended to provide the space to tell the stories of the some 30,000 Australians that have served over the last 20 years in Afghanistan and elsewhere. To be able to have this space to tell the stories of the peacekeepers that have stood in conflict, in border posts every day for the last 75 years, since 1947. And that's such an important part of our national story. It's not just about what we've done for wars of the past, but also what we currently do in terms of maintaining peace. So really important to be able to have this space, to be able to honour those stories, that sacrifice, those families in the same way that we do from World War One and World War Two, for example. And to do that, we needed space. The building is a magnificent building, but it was a Depression-era build. It was built in the Depression and opened actually during the Second World War. And it's not a fit for purpose build. We had, for example, enormous latent issues with mould, asbestos, walls without footings, a lack of space, no disability access, etc. So, there are two components to the build. One is around that space and the other is around addressing many of the latent issues with the actual build and building back better. Building back for a future where there is the ability to tell those stories and honour those, in a very real way.

BENNETT MASON

Now, these are big projects. There was a lot of public money. There was public scrutiny around the projects. So how have you and the development committee and the Council ensured good governance around the building of these projects?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Look, that scrutiny is very appropriate. And at the beginning of the venture, the Council set up a memorial development committee. And that committee's role is to provide the Council level oversight of the project. So, all aspects of that project, as you would expect. So, schedule, budget, etc. We also clearly have other scrutiny afforded to us through the act, the PGPA Act through the ANAO office, for example. And those things are important. This is a public project. This is for the public. This is a nation leading development. It's a once in a lifetime project, and it is right and proper that it is open for external review.

BENNETT MASON

The War Memorial is also doing something pretty extraordinary with geothermal energy. Can you speak about that?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Absolutely. So, one of the decisions around building back better was to seize the opportunity. Again, this is absolutely a nation leading development. And part of that was the opportunity to put in a geothermal. And the geothermal system is currently the largest geothermal system in the Southern hemisphere. Certainly, Council's immensely proud of what we are doing in that sustainability space. And it's not just the geothermal. There’s the geothermal, there's replanting of trees, there's an enormous investment in the solar as well. But I think it speaks to the values. This is a cultural institution. This is a nation leading project. And in many ways, we honour the generation that we are building the development for by recognising that a commitment to ESG principles, a commitment to the security of our future environment, is both an opportunity and a responsibility within the rebuild.

BENNETT MASON

Now, the War Memorial Council is a big role. It's an important role. But you do have other board positions, too. You've been a director at health organisations, government, NFP, commercial. How do you decide whether to join a board or not, and what sort of factors do you consider?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

So, for me, one of the key factors is always around values and purpose. So, what I have looked for in the roles is that that has been in alignment for me. That I understand what that board is there to do and that it resonates for me both personally and professionally as a director. Like all directors, I do my due diligence, and I think it's very important to think about who you're going to be sitting around that table with and who you're going to be spending a significant amount of your time. And are your values aligned? They’re probably the key ones. And then, of course, there's obviously the issue of capacity. What is on the plate at the moment? Where do you have space? Because you do need to be prepared to deal with, not just with the business-as-usual aspect of being a board director, but do you have the capacity to deal with things when the world might come off the rails, or there's a crisis that needs an enormous amount of investment in terms of time and energy?

BENNETT MASON

You mentioned time and energy. Susan, I hope you don't mind me saying, but you are a very busy person. Apart from your board roles, you've also been a celebrated cancer surgeon. How do you balance your time between being a doctor and a director? And does the operating theatre require a different mindset to the boardroom?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Firstly, what I'd say is that I'm in a period of transition. So very much transitioning from full time surgery to board roles. And as time has gone on, I closed my surgical practice, and I have more control over what I do as a surgeon. So, I'm very much working these days in areas of need, going back to my grassroots as a general surgeon, which gives me a flexibility that I didn't have when I was in full time private practice. In terms of the mindset of being a director and being a surgeon, I think it's a really interesting one to reflect on because there are actually similarities. And those are, I guess, with the strategic focus. So why are you there? What is it you're trying to achieve today? Thinking about perspective, what's important? What's not important? Thinking about risk. Because certainly the operating theatre has got its own suite of very real risks. When you're talking about poor decisions leading to poor outcomes that can cost people their life or limb or cause significant pain and disability. I think culture is also one that resonates as well across both entities. The need to ensure that people are all aligned and you’re all on the same page for the same reason. They’re probably the key ones, and I'm not sure that they are as dissimilar as people think.

BENNETT MASON

You’ve obviously had this direct role at the front line of the health sector, but you've also had a series of board roles in health. It's a big and complex sector. But what do you think some of the key governance issues facing health boards right now?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

That's a big question. Health boards face the same issues as any other board. But I guess the key difference is that when you're talking about health, you are talking about a vulnerable population. There's also the issues around resource limitations, because it is one of those boxes for which there will never be an end to the resources that's required. So how do you balance the resources? How do you ensure that you get equity, that people get what is appropriate care? There is a need for greater transparency and scrutiny, because we're talking around the quality of care that's being provided to people. As I say, often at their most vulnerable, when they're not necessarily in the best position to be helping with some of that decision making. On top of that, I think in our current world, healthcare's been a little clunky in adopting new technologies. We're very siloed. I used to make the observation that it was easier to do internet banking on a cell phone in Mogadishu than it is to send a referral from a general practice to a specialist via a fax machine. Now, some of that has changed, but some of it really remains the same. We're not good at sharing information in a way that helps us provide a continuity of care, but still addresses the privacy issues that we have to address. So, there are lots of challenges. And they are really not so dissimilar from other entities. But there obviously is a unique complexity within that box.

BENNETT MASON

I wanted to talk a little bit about the AICD itself. You were a national board member with the institute, and you're a past president of the SA and NT Division Council. Why is the ACID and its mission significant to you? Why did you want to become involved in the organisation?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Look, I think that goes right back to my first board role and having the opportunity to do the AICD course, which is, as you know, such a powerful course in terms of giving you the skillset or helping you understand what it is that you will need to develop as skills on your director journey. And it is, of course, a continuous learning journey. And so, the AICD has been very much a part of that for me as I've gone through my various roles. But look at its core, the AICD is about strengthening society through good governance, and that absolutely resonates with me when we're talking about not-for-profit boards, about uplifting our directors across sporting boards, across school boards. Because if we do that, if we can give community directors, particularly, a set of skills and resources to help uplift their ability to govern those absolutely critical institutions across Australian society, then we uplift everybody. So, it is such an important role. And I take my hat off to the AICD for the leadership and the education it provides.

BENNETT MASON

We’re nearly out of time. And we've already spoken about your roles in the military, in health organisations. We've spoken about you as a doctor, but we haven't talked about you as an author. You've also written several books, one of which is Not for Glory: A Century of Service by Medical Women to the Australian Army and its Allies. Why was it important for you to tell that story?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

That book is very much a collection of stories about Australian women, and I was drawn to their stories because they were stories of extraordinary women, and I didn't know anything about them. So, I had served in the military for some 20 odd years, and yet I had no idea that there were Australian women in World War One, for example, who paid their way to the UK, who worked as battlefield surgeons in Serbia, who worked under horrendous conditions looking after Australian and other Allied soldiers. And I'd reached a point in my career where not only was it extraordinary to discover these stories, but I was deeply ashamed that I didn't know about them, that they had somehow not so much been written out of history but overlooked. And it was incredibly important to me to be able to honour some of these women who really have opened the doors of opportunity that I have sailed through in my career, and to recognise what they did. And so, it was one of those projects that started as something I thought would be quite small and progressively got bigger as I discovered more and more untold stories. And a few years later, those stories, or a number of those stories, were turned into a play by an amazing theatre company which toured the Adelaide Fringe and also the Edinburgh Fringe. And to see their stories come to life and to see another generation be able to understand what these women did, that's powerful.

BENNETT MASON

That's not the only thing you've written. You're also the author of a children's book which is titled Malaria Menace. What made you want to write that?

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Clearly, I'm a frustrated art student. I was studying Indonesia, I am studying Indonesian, and I'm doing a Diploma of Arts, and it started as a semester project, which in tradition became a little bit bigger than was first intended. But I suppose in some ways it takes me back to my roots. So, it circles right back to the beginning of my time in the military, when I was in Cambodia, and during my time there, I had the privilege of also being responsible for a very small malaria research unit, which I suppose sparked my interest in malaria. I subsequently served in Bougainville, and there was one particular patient that I remember very vividly, a woman who had malaria when she was pregnant with her baby. And it just seemed to combine all of those things. It was the Indonesian language study, the ability to tell a story around that and combine that. So, I suppose in so many ways, it's kind of the art side and the surgeon side coming together.

BENNETT MASON

Susan, we might leave things there, but it's been great to speak with you. Thanks so much for sharing your time with us.

SUSAN NEUHAUS

Thank you, Bennett, for the opportunity.