Boardroom Conversations with Marina Go

Episode 1: Marina Go - How to be an effective chair, tips for starting your director career, and why diversity is critical for boards

Marina Go MAICD is the Chair of Adore Beauty, and a director with Energy Australia, 7-Eleven and Transurban. She tells us how her media career prepared her for the boardroom. Plus: advice on being an effective chair, tips for finding your first director position, and lessons from the boardroom of an NRL club.

Transcript

BENNETT MASON

Hello and welcome to Boardroom Conversations, a podcast series from the Australian Institute of Company Directors. My name is Bennett Mason and thank you for listening. We'll be speaking with some of Australia's leading board members about their experiences, insights, and strategies for success. In each episode we’ll have a candid conversation with a director, delving into their backgrounds, journey to the boardroom and some of the challenges they faced along the way. I'm pleased to say that this time our guest is Marina Go, the chair of Adore Beauty. She's also a non-executive director with Energy Australia, 7-Eleven, Transurban, among others. I should add that Marina has also just joined the board of the AICD itself. On top of that, she's a former chair of Wests Tigers NRL club Netball Australia and Ovarian Cancer Australia. Marina was also the GM of magazine company Bauer Media Australia and Private Media too. Marina, thanks very much for speaking with us today.

MARINA GO

Thank you for inviting me too.

BENNETT MASON

Now, Marina, as we just listed, you've had an extremely impressive career and you were in the media before you became fully focussed on your board roles. How do you think your media career prepared you to be a company director?

MARINA GO

It's a really good question, and I think actually the skills that you develop in media are very well suited to being a company director. And one of the reasons is that we are naturally inquisitive, and you need to be a learner of life and journalists need to continually learn. I started my career as a journalist and obviously needing to ask, needing to understand how to get the right questions. To get the right information out of people by asking the right questions and how to influence outcomes, for journalists to get information and in many ways, it is for directors as well. So, influencing people to make sure that they give you the right information so you can make great judgements. But second to that, I think two attributes of directors that are potentially underrated but I think, for me, are increasingly important are courage and resilience. And journalists have to have that. You know, the amount of nos that you get. I did the death knocks, the door death knocks, which were horrendous, as a young journalist. And that taught me a whole lot about courage and resilience because you’ve got to keep going back. It's horrible. As well as many other things that I had to deal with in my media career. So, I do think that most, not all, I mean, obviously you need to also have an understanding and interest in business. And, you know, the latter half of my career was on the business side. So that's probably why for me, it was a natural transition.

BENNETT MASON

We went through your bio a little bit earlier. You've held board positions across an amazing range of industries and sectors. There's sports, energy, NFPs, but also roads, retail and tech too. What's it like to have such a broad range of director roles, and do you think it's helpful for you to be involved in a in such a variety of sectors?

MARINA GO

Yeah, I really like the variety. And one of the reasons that I think it's beneficial to me and the perspective that I bring to each of those boards is that business is interlinked. No sector operates in a vacuum. And some of the macro, all the macro challenges essentially are largely shared, and some sectors see them before others. And so, for example, I have a lot in my portfolio around the mobility space and there are different lenses that each of those organisations will bring to that particular aspect. Through AutoSports Group, we sell cars, Transurban, roads, 7-Eleven, fuel. And even with Adore Beauty and e-commerce, because you know, that is that is a really big measure of the usage of commercial vehicles on roads. I get to see quite a fuller perspective, I think. And so, I feel that I'm able to bring more knowledge around that aspect to my judgements. And so, I like the variety, as I said, and I think that if it makes sense and the businesses, I'm passionate about. I like to be in businesses that make a difference or are nation building or are heading on trend and they seem to be the things that I am attracted to. And I think you see that in my portfolio.

BENNETT MASON

Well, let's talk a little bit about that portfolio. You must have had all sorts of offers in your board career. How do you decide which board positions to accept and which to knock back? What sort of factors do you look at before taking on a new director role?

MARINA GO

So, I have to have some sort of interest in what the business is doing. And so, whether that is actually what they're making, or the service they're providing, or the difference that that business is making to the country, there has to be something there. For me, it's not just: “Oh, there's a board. I I've got a hole in my portfolio. I'll take it.” So there needs to be some reason for me. But then the next critical aspect is the chair. So, I then have the opportunity to meet the chair. And I have stepped back from opportunities that, I thought the business was something that I liked, because I wasn't comfortable with the chair and what they were saying to me about the business. And how they manage the things around the table, around the board table. So that is critical. And then, of course, you get to meet the rest of the directors and you need to feel comfortable with who's sitting alongside you. That’s aside from the obvious due diligence that you need to do around financials and making sure that you're not heading into an insolvency situation. But they tend to be the most important things. My personal interest in the business and then really, the chair.

BENNETT MASON

It must be quite difficult though, to politely knock back some of those offers, I can imagine.

MARINA GO

It tends to be before they become an offer. So, you know, you're in a system, so you're on a shortlist, you get interviewed. And so, I would not get to a point, I don't think, where I'd be the selected candidate and then say: “Oh, by the way, I'm not interested.” I think that's not a great look. To me, it's earlier in the process. Because you do get to meet the chair early in the process. There's a number of meetings before somebody will offer you an opportunity.

BENNETT MASON

Some of the people listening to this will just be beginning their board careers. Or they might be thinking about their very first director position. What advice would you give to directors who are just starting their own board careers?

MARINA GO

Well, you need to put in a lot of work upfront. So, I left my media career because I was appointed to a board, but it was one board. You know, one board doesn't take up a lot of time in your life, particularly when you've come from a full media or full executive career, whether it's media or not. So after that, I just had to go out and meet everybody. You cannot assume that people knows who you are. Even if you've had, as I've had, quite a high-profile media career, you realise very quickly that people in other sectors don't know who you are. So, everyone in your sector knows, but no one else does, so you have to get out there. So, I met with other directors who introduced me to other directors, who introduced me to chairs of boards. I met with every recruitment firm in the country virtually and just kept doing that. So, every six months, and updating my CV and just having to do that. And really the break for me was that somebody recommended me for another opportunity. And I was very fortunate, and my skill set happened to match the opportunity at the time. Because I find once you're on one or two boards, the next are easier. The hardest is the first and sometimes even the second. But after that, it becomes more easy. And I think it's because there's comfort, I guess, from boards in you having a track record, another board. Because it's hard, to remove a director once a director is appointed. I think that's why boards are naturally more cautious than many of us would like them to be.

BENNETT

A lot of directors say that getting that first board position is the hardest. Do you have any tips on how people can get that very first board gig?

MARINA GO

You really just have to put yourself out there, so you have to let people know that this is what you want to do. I found that it was really important for there to be an understanding that I was prepared to, with one board, do this thing full-time. So become a full-time company director as opposed to trying to fit it in with an executive career. That is, I think most boards are not comfortable with that. So just meeting people. I don't know that there's any other way. I mean, of course I did the AICD course before I ever became a director, and that's really important actually, to protect yourself. It's not just a signal to the director community that you might know what you're doing. But it's actually to protect yourself because we take a lot of risks as directors. In fact, we take all the risk in the business. So, you need to go in eyes-wide-open because it can get very scary if you're at the pointy end of something that's particularly difficult. I think that's important and just get to know as many directors as possible because you need to be top of mind. That's a real challenge. If people don't think of you, they don’t think to put you on a shortlist or even a long list. Yeah, there's no easy way. You've got to hit the ground running and try and have coffees with everybody you know who is a company director and ask them to introduce you to others. The first couple of years were very busy for me, not just because I was building my portfolio, but because I was in between seeing as many people as I could.

BENNETT MASON

So that networking really is important.

MARINA GO

It's critical.

BENNETT MASON

And I'm also very pleased that you've got in a plug for the AICD courses. So, thank you very much for that. We're always happy to mention the CDC and our numerous other excellent courses. Now you became the chair of Adore Beauty in 2021 and you've been the chair at a number of other organisations as well. How do you interpret that role as the chair and what do you think makes for an effective chair of the board?

MARINA GO

Well, with Adore, it's a founder-led business. It's a listed business and we have multiple shareholders and stakeholders. I chair that board in really the only way I know how to chair it. And that is the way that I've been taught and that is: it is a proper governed listed entity. We have a majority independent board, so there's five directors: two founders and three independent directors. And I'm an independent chair. And we have a really fantastic company secretary who ensures that we follow, and we observe, all of the correct processes of best practice governance. We act in the best interests of all shareholders. And we're very true to that. And it is perceived to be challenging because it's a founder-led business. And with many founder-led businesses, founders often have a louder voice. But that's not the case with our business. I make sure that every director has an equal opportunity to contribute. It’s a very, if I do say so myself, a very well-run business that I'm really proud of. It's obviously in a challenged macro environment for the moment, for the sector that it’s in. Every chair role is different. It just depends on the conditions. It actually depends on the representation around the table. So, you know, obviously the best practice structure is full independence, but sports boards are not unlike a founder-led business because very often they'll be representatives from somewhere. Often it's another football club or an ownership stake. What I try to do as chair, is to remind people constantly of our duties and what it is that we’re here to do. And that sometimes in sports boards can get lost, because people are quite passionate about something that happened on the weekend. But that's not the job of the board. The job of the board is to ensure that there are higher level decisions taken that are in the best interests of the organisation, because that's in the best interests of shareholders. And so that's the way I approach the role.

BENNETT MASON

So there are principles that you can carry over, whether it's the chair of a listed company like Adore, or a rugby league club or a charity?

MARINA GO

That's right. Yeah. I don't really differentiate in the way that I chair and that's because I really know only one way to do so. And that's because I've been very fortunate to have worked alongside some of the best chairs in the country. So, I’ve learnt from them.

BENNETT MASON

So what did those chairs teach you? What did you learn from them?

MARINA GO

Well, they've certainly taught me that in the listed space, the most important thing I’ve got to worry about is disclosure. And our strategy. And so that's really important. But just the culture around the board table is really important. So, the way that you are able to get the best out of your people. And with any leadership position, that's your job. So, I take that very seriously. My role is to make sure that the directors around the board table, and of course the CEO and leadership team, are operating to the best of their ability. So, they need to feel that they have a voice. They need to feel like they have an equal voice. And I ensure that there is equal knowledge around the table. So that we don't have side conversations where decisions are taken. That kind of very old school board stuff that used to happen. If there is a conversation outside the boardroom, I make sure that everybody's aware of that conversation. Everybody is well equipped to be able to make decisions when we need to make decisions, and that's in the best interests of the organisation. That's why you bring good people on. One of the most important things is to ensure that we have the best talent, not only around the board table, but in the executive. And the only way you do that is if you make sure that they feel supported and they have the right opportunities. They get the chance to say what they want to say, even if they disagree with everybody else. I think that's really important to encourage. But once we make a decision, everybody knows that we line up behind that decision and that's it. So, we're very clear on our role. I'm very clear in my role. And as I said, it's easier for me and for them if they are clear on their role too.

BENNETT MASON

The chair also has an important role in finding new board members. Are there any factors you look at when you're doing that? Is there a secret to recruiting new board members?

MARINA GO

Well, first of all, there's a skills matrix. So, if there is an opportunity then the board will look at a skills matrix. And then from that skills matrix generally, depends on the organisation, but certainly the listed boards, we will go to a recruiter and work with them on ensuring that we don't just find people that we know, because I think that's really important. I think the best boards are boards where the people around the table don't know each other very well. But that doesn't mean that there doesn't need to be a nice, comfortable way of working together. So, they’re the things that I look for. We hear this thing about “fit”. I don't like that term because it suggests that everybody needs to be the same and friends and come from the same sort of schools and backgrounds. But there does need to be a collegiality to the way that people approach. So, for me, the fit is more about style. And so, there are people who are able to get their point across. And are very comfortable and confident doing so in a very collegiate, professional manner, rational. And then there are people who are table bangers, and I'm not too keen on working alongside table bangers. So that's more what I like. But as I said to you, I think you find that you get a greater variety of backgrounds and diverse thinking if the people that join the board don’t previously come from the same backgrounds or have other network links.

BENNETT MASON

You don't have to go into specifics here. But have you been on boards previously where that has been an issue, where people have perhaps come from too similar background?

MARINA GO

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And there's not enough differentiation in their contribution. And that doesn't mean that they're not really bright people individually and that they shouldn't be directors. Of course, they should. A lot of them are some of the brightest people I've ever met, but they don't necessarily have a different point of view. And so, some of the questions are similar, because they come from a similar lens. I think that the most interesting boards to be part of, the most developed conversations come from different inputs that clearly have a different lens. And that's where diversity is really critical.

BENNETT MASON

We'll talk a bit more about diversity in a moment, but I just wanted to touch on culture. It's something you've spoken about previously. One of the board's many important roles is in setting the organisation's culture. Do you have a view on the best way to do that?

MARINA GO

I think one of the most important things is boards actually have to walk the talk. So, whatever we decide, or we believe should be the culture of the organisation, if we don't reflect that, then it just dies. Doesn't matter what we try and do. So that in itself is critical and I raised that because there are certain values. So, for example, there was one organisation that I was part of, and humility was one of the values of the organisation that everybody agreed was the right sort of value and, cultural attribute for this particular company. But when we went on board trips, the chair and the CEO went in a special car and other people went on a bus and I thought: “That's really not living our values and we're not walking the talk here.” So, what does that say to the organisation about our culture and what we really believe? So, the board definitely works with management on what we believe is right for the organisation. And the culture needs to fit the type of organisation. And obviously there needs to be an understanding that this is the right culture. But the criticality for me is, well what happens next? You can say anything you like. You can put a set of words on a piece of paper and every company will have those sets of words. But unless the board lives that, it just doesn't resonate.

BENNETT MASON

The directors obviously are not there every day on the shop floor. How can boards really assess and get an accurate picture of their organisation's culture? Is it pulse surveys, site visits, briefings from management, or is it something else entirely?

MARINA GO

So, we definitely receive pulse surveys. Every organisation I’m involved with does something like that. We listen to customer service departments. We also have presentations from not only the ELT, but sometimes people through the business. Most of the boards I'm involved with encourage that. So that we get to see and hear. I observe, you don’t just listen to what they're saying around the board table, but you observe their interaction and sometimes you can pick things up. But definitely being in the business. So, there are site tours and there are official visits. And when that happens, people get all shiny and ready for that. But I think even just being around the business after a board meeting, for example. I've had an example where I was just waiting around. I had a meeting with another executive in the business after a board meeting, and a young woman came up to me in the business and poured her heart out to me because she felt comfortable doing so, because I was one of the few women on the board. She had very similar cultural background to me, so she felt comfortable. And I then spoke to the board about what she'd said, and it was, we were trying to work out how would this come to us in any other way. Because she didn't feel comfortable talking to anybody else. So, you get that from walking around the business. Particularly if you are a board that walks the talk. So, if you are accessible, you don't separate yourself. Most of the boards I'm involved with, of course we’re the board and there is a bit of reverence around that, but we try not to sit on top of the castle. Every board I'm involved with, in conversations with management, there is an openness around it. To say, if we're around the board table, having a conversation, if somebody comes in from outside, they shouldn't know who a director is and who an executive is. Because we're having a conversation together for the right outcome. Yes, at the end of the day, we have to make a decision. But while we're in a conversation, let's have that conversation together. If that becomes your culture, then you find that people are more willing to talk to you outside the boardroom, because they're not scared of you. And that in itself says something. So, I feel comfortable, if somebody comes up to me, that says to me people are not scared in this organisation. That's a big tick for our culture. And then it is: well, what are they telling me that tells me that we've got a problem over here, that maybe is a blind spot? I don't think directors can just attend board meetings and go home and I don't think that happens anymore anyway. I think we've all realised, certainly in my time I've been a director now. This is my seventh year as full time, because I did some sports boards and charities while I was an executive. But certainly, since this became my full-time career, in my entire time, it has been like this.

BENNETT MASON

Are there certain questions you ask of staff or management? or certain things you look for when you when you're trying to gauge culture?

MARINA GO

I always ask people how they are and how they're feeling, why they like working for us. So, I tend to ask them about their background in that conversation. And particularly if you ask people why they like working for us, you get a real sense in their body language and what they will and sometimes what they don't tell you about whether or not that is true. Whether they do in fact like working for us. And so, we do that actually on a number of boards regularly. So, we have board meetings at various sites, and we get an opportunity to speak to the team over drinks or coffee or something. We do that and I learn a lot about the culture of the organisation that way. It's in fact, it's probably the way I learn the most about it, as opposed to the pulse surveys come in. I think boards are much better at understanding what is the culture of the organisation, but also what their employees are thinking. And the whole concept of an employee value proposition. And understanding that most businesses are nothing without their people, is a really positive mindset for a board to have. As I said to you, every board that I'm involved with has that mindset.

BENNETT MASON

Now you've spoken and written a lot about diversity. We've seen some improvement with gender diversity in the boardroom, but of course there is still more work to do. According to the latest AICD research, women now make up around 40% of ASX 200 non-executive directors. There's been some improvement there, but what else needs to be done?

MARINA GO

I think getting near to 40% for women around the board tables of ASX 200 and that's fantastic. But what that says to me though is we know that there are some boards that have more women than men and that means that there's still a lot that have less. And I do think that we shouldn't hide behind a number or get too excited about a percentage when there are still a lot of boards that don't have that. There are boards certainly outside the ASX 200 that don't have any women still, and they're in private boards, not-for-profits, sports boards, for example. Absolutely, sports boards. I think that we need to not let go of the gender thing. So that is still really important. We've got some work to do because you want every board to have 50% opportunity. And I’m comfortable with the 40, 40, 20. I think that kind of works. But we're not really there for every board. So, we’re there generally as an average, but there is work to do on the intersectionality of gender. And so, we know that there's been virtually no movement with regards to multicultural backgrounds. And I think the reason that we believe in 50% ultimately for women is that it's fair. That's fair and reasonable because that represents a population. And so, I think we need to think about what is fair more broadly and why there may be less opportunities for people who come from multicultural backgrounds. And a lot of it, I know because I've heard conversations around board tables, comes back to the style of people. So, what's the paradigm of leadership? It's still very much the older white guy who has a more domineering personality. That's not how I chair a board. That's not how I ever led as a leader. And there are some really fantastic female leaders, and particularly women from certainly Asian backgrounds, African backgrounds, that I've met over the years who have a different leadership style. But it's no less effective. In fact, the results are fantastic. But if they don't fit this concept of what a leader looks and feels like, it's going to be really difficult. There have been a few announcements in recent times around leadership changes of major company boards moving from a very popular figure, a very big figure of a man, being replaced by a female and share prices have dropped. I look at that and my heart sinks every time that happens. And I think it's just disappointing, but it is in many ways a reflection, to me, of how people view female leadership still as in some way inferior to male leadership. And it's just simply not true. It doesn't mean that every woman who is a leader, or every multicultural person who is a leader, is a great leader. But it does mean that we need to give them the opportunity to fail in the way that we give men the opportunity to fail, and certainly white men the opportunity fail. So that for me is where I feel like there's an opportunity to make a bigger difference in terms of the quality of leadership in this country.

BENNETT MASON

So, you think it's more than just an issue for boards and directors? It is that broader cultural issue across the country?

MARINA GO

It is. And that's because a lot of directorships come through people that have been CEOs or they've been in the C-suite, certainly of large, listed companies. And if you look at the C-suite and you look at the CEO mix. We’re very thin on the ground with females and we've even thinner when it comes to a multicultural background or a non-Anglo cultural background. So that is where we need to do some more work. And it's incumbent on all of us, as a director of organisations, it's my responsibility for the companies that I'm involved with. But I just think as leaders, we need to be looking at the pipeline of directors coming through. Because if we don't get them into the starting gate, they're not going to get to the board. And I know that at the board we need greater diverse thinking. So, there's a knock-on effect if we don't get there.

BENNETT MASON

You mentioned pipelines. is there a point along the pipeline where you see that blockage occurring? Where does the problem happen?

MARINA GO

For women it's always been around the time that they choose to have children. And so that becomes problematic. And I think views have changed over the years, but certainly it was a blocker to my career. When I had a baby, I thought my career was over and I had to work really hard to not make it over. And I shouldn't have to do that. You shouldn't have to work that hard. So, I think a lot of those roadblocks have changed for women, not all. And it depends on the sector and it depends who you are. But there are decisions that are often taken also around the lack of childcare. So, getting the childcare equation right is really critical to the to the country. Because if childcare is really expensive or it's difficult to get your child into a quality centre, then someone has to stay home to look after the child. Not everybody has grandparents that can look after children. So, then it becomes, well, who earns the least amount? And then we have that problem that we've always had where at that point, very often it's the men, not in all cases, but very often it's the man who is earning more. So, you can see why we've got to get some of those fundamentals right. So, this is a much bigger issue than just: how do we bring more women through? I'm part of a group called “Women in Progress”, and we work really hard on ensuring that we lobby the government around things like childcare for all, access for all. And that's the reason, because we know that it will actually change that decision once a woman has a baby. And then we can work on, if we get more women on boards, we can actually work on the fact that now we have women who are still in the business at a middle senior level. And we can work on the businesses to bring them forward into the C-suite. And then they have the opportunity down the line to become company directors. So, we've got to get the fundamentals right.

BENNETT MASON

We touched a little bit before on cultural and racial diversity. We said that there have been some signs of improvements with gender diversity in boards. But as you said, that's maybe not the case with cultural or racial diversity, certainly at big ASX listed companies. What do you think the issue is there? And are there lessons learnt from the improvements that we've made with gender diversity that can be applied to cultural or racial diversity?

MARINA GO

You have to be aware of it, right? You just have to be aware of it. You have to be conscious of it and you have to deliberately make sure that there are candidates on the shortlist. So, one of the ways that we managed to change things for women on boards is that we said to recruitment firms: we want women on the shortlist. And then we made sure that the panel that was determining and interviewing the shortlist for the board, or that recommended candidates, that there would be a woman on that panel. There were some deliberate actions that companies took to ensure that they removed any, or at least negated bias, which may have sat there previously. So, you have to do the same. It's positive discrimination in some way. And that doesn't mean that a person who has a background that is not Anglo is going to get a rocket ship transport through to the final decision. But it does mean that they're actually in the decision. And I think there have been too many instances where you just don't see anybody of colour in the shortlist. So, you’re naturally not going to find anyone. And forcing recruitment firms to go looking because it's easier for them to put a list together of people that are already doing these roles. Well, you don't bring new people in, if they're not there already. How do you find these people? So, it becomes this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy unless you deliberately change that.

BENNETT MASON

Marina, I want to talk a little bit more about your own board career. You've been the chair of two sporting organisations: the West Tigers NRL Club and Netball Australia. Now sports boards can be unique in lots of ways, but one of them is the sheer level of public scrutiny. You've got fans and the media often have intense interest in how sporting organisations are run. How challenging can that be?

MARINA GO

Oh, it is the most challenging of all. And mostly because just the way sports have professionalised. As a result, there’s an expectation that sports boards would professionalise too. But they don't do that without the experience around the board table. Certainly, in my experience, there is a real pushback from the old guard. That they don't want people from the outside infiltrating their club or their sport national body. So, they don't see the opportunity that bringing new thinking in, makes a difference.

So those of us who sit around board tables know that the more diverse the thinking, the greater the opportunity list. Because we're coming up with different ideas and different thoughts. They're thinking about not wanting things to change. And so, it's really difficult. With business, business knows that growth is the only thing that is going to increase value for shareholders, right? So that's fantastic. Very often sports boards don't necessarily see it in that way. So, it's difficult to change the mindset. But look, the reason that I've been involved in sports for quite as long as I have, and it's been a long journey for me altogether. Because I did netball first and I did the West Tigers and then I've come back to netball. So in total, I've done 12 years for netball, which is quite a long time. And I did five years with the West Tigers. And so, when you think about 17 years in sport, the major reason that I do it is the impact that sport has on the community. So, for me it's about what does this industry do? And it does really wonderful things for people. I like the purpose of sports. But it's like going into battle, you know. That said, I think that certainly governing bodies seem to have evolved professionally. I think the board of Netball Australia now is a much more professional board. We’ve got some great directors around the table. Clubs are evolving and they're heading towards that too. But it's a challenge. It’s the most challenging environment that I've worked in. And would I do it again? Yes. Yes, I would do it again. Even though it does keep you up at night.

BENNETT MASON

But still, you worked in the media. You know how this works. Even then, it must have been surprising, just the intense focus that comes on directors and especially chairs at a sporting organisation. Even if you're a director at a large, listed company, you're probably not going to end up on the front page or the back page of the paper. But of course, that can happen when you're involved in sporting organisations.

MARINA GO

Yeah, and it did happen to me when I was the chair of the West Tigers. I think I was on the back page virtually every other day for something. And I think at one point it was the front page as well. I remember at the time thinking: “Thank God I’m the chair.” Because I felt terrible for everybody else around the board table. But because I've got a media background, and this was the media and I’ve been on their side. I kind of understood it and I was able to interpret it. And there were many times when, my family, my sons and I would laugh about some of the things that were said. Which probably would have been more traumatic for somebody else who hadn't been through the media. So, I suspect the resilience of having been through the media and then the courage, as I said earlier, that comes with that, really set me up well for chairing a rugby league club. And to be one of the first women to ever chair a club, in an environment where a lot of the men didn't want women to be involved. So, it was a pretty aggressive environment. But again, I learnt a lot. I learnt a lot about myself. I certainly learned a lot about the challenges and what I learnt there has now helped me with some of the of the business challenges. Because it's a pretty dynamic, sometimes rocky macro environment for business at the moment. And the things that we're leaning into do not faze me. We've got some massive challenges as a country and certainly some of the sectors I'm involved with. And I'm not fazed by it because I've been through very challenging times previously.

BENNETT MASON

Moving on then. You recently co-signed a letter in support of The Voice alongside some other prominent Australian directors like David Gonski and AICD chair John Atkin. We don't need to talk specifically about the Voice, but why do you think it's important for directors to speak out on public policy issues?

MARINA GO

I think it's important if you have a very strong belief. So, I don't believe that everybody should, or anybody has to. So, I certainly wouldn't put pressure on all the directors to do so because I didn't feel comfortable. But this is a topic that I feel particularly strong about. And it's also an area that businesses largely haven't leaned into, in the way that they leaned into things like marriage equality. So, I think in the absence of that, one of the reasons that I felt a sense of responsibility to myself maybe to do so, was that I wanted to put my hand up and say, I really support this. Because with other areas of potential controversy, other businesses themselves that I might have been part of have, leaned in and put their hand up. Because that hasn't happened yet, it may well happen, I just felt very strongly that this is something that I wanted to do. You do meet other company directors as a director. You know, we come into contact, not necessarily people that I'm on boards with, but just people that you meet who share your passions for our country and aspirations for our nation and sense of fairness, to be honest. Because that for me is the thing. And I felt that I wanted to say something about that publicly and make sure that people understood that this is where I stand. And, you know, there is a measure of influence that some of us have on other people. And if it helps, certainly people who are undecided, or who may be confused by some of the negative rhetoric or even confused by some of the positive. Because not everybody understands how they need to get to a decision. If there are instances where it can help to know who actually is in support, or who is not in support. And so that's why I've done it personally. And I'm really proud to do it. And I will stand up for issues that I believe in as a person. I don't stand up for them as a director of a particular company because it's not fair on that company. But I stand up for it as an independent director, and that's ultimately what we are. That is the job that I do. I'm an independent director first and foremost. I'm independent of anything and anyone else. It's one of the reasons I love what I do, because I work for me. But because I worked for me, I felt very confident in saying this is what I believe in.

BENNETT MASON

And directors as individuals do have that independence. But at the same time, more and more now, boards and their companies or their organisations are being asked, and in some instances, expected to comment or have a view on public issues, whether they're political or cultural. How the boards come to those sorts of decisions?

MARINA GO

Not surprisingly a lot of these conversations are being had around board tables. I think ultimately the conversation tends to be: is this right for our stakeholders? So, is this an issue that our stakeholders would expect us to lean into? Because it's not our personal views as directors, that we should be saying: “Okay, yeah, we all believe.” We need to ensure that we get an understanding of the company, as I said, our stakeholders, the people that work for us, but also the communities that we work in. I think that's really critical. So, I'm a customer-facing person, that's been my background. So my thought is always: what would our communities expect us to do? So, we are working in various communities, depending on the board you’re in. And what would our customers expect us to do about this? What do we think they feel? Is this the right issue for us and our customer base? And it won't be the same for every company. It won't be the same for every sector. You've seen a lot of mining companies that have lent into the Voice, because they’re on land. And they have very strong relationships with their indigenous communities and that is the right thing for them to do.

BENNETT MASON

Well, Marina Go, we've covered a lot of ground, but we might leave it there. Thanks so much for joining us on boardroom conversations.

MARINA GO

Thank you for having me.