Boardroom Conversations with Jenn Morris

Episode 10: Jenn Morris – lessons from a gold medal winner, advice on picking your next CEO, and boards’ developing approach to climate change

Jenn Morris MAICD is a director with Argonaut, Liontown Resources and Sandfire. She also won gold medals for Australia in hockey at the 1996 and 2000 Olympics. We discuss lessons from Jenn’s career in sports, advice on picking your company’s next CEO, and boards’ developing approach to climate change. Plus, what’s the right composition for a sports organisation’s board?

Transcript

BENNETT MASON

Hello, it's Bennett Mason here from the AICD. We've just got a brief note before this week's episode.  

The podcast you're about to listen to is an interview with company director and former Olympian, Jenn Morris. At the time we recorded it, she was still a director with mining giant, Fortescue. But Jenn has since left the company's board. The episode holds up just fine though, and we hope you it. 

Hello and welcome to Boardroom Conversations, a podcast from the Australian Institute of Company Directors. I'm Bennett Mason and thanks so much for listening to us. In each episode we’ll have conversations with some of Australia's leading directors, delving into their background journey to the boardroom and a few of the challenges they have faced along the way. Our guest this time is Jen Morris. She's a director with Fortescue, the Liontown, Sandfire and several other organisations. She's also a former partner with Deloitte, she was a board member with the Fremantle Dockers and a commissioner with the Australian Sports Commission. Jen also won gold medals for Australia in Hockey at the ‘96 and 2000 Olympics. Jenn, thanks so much for joining us. 

JENN MORRIS 

My pleasure, Bennett. 

BENNETT MASON 

Now, as we just listed, Jen, you had an extremely successful career in sports before you became a company director. Were there lessons from the hockey field that have helped you in the boardroom? 

JENN MORRIS 

I think so. As an elite sportsperson, what are the similarities to working on a board or a senior executive, for that matter? I think preparation is absolutely key. We often hear about the great successes and the great outcomes, whether that be business or sport. But we all know that to have repeated consistent performance at the highest level requires great preparation. And I think if there's one thing I learned, that I could take from my sporting career into my career post that, has been that being very, very committed to the right preparation gives you great confidence and often gets the best results. 

BENNETT MASON 

I guess you can compare practice on the hockey field to going through those very, very meaty board papers sometimes. 

JENN MORRIS 

Yes, that's true. It is a bit of a war of attrition at times. You think: “really, how much how much do I have to do? How much training, how many board papers?” I guess there are some differences as well. You have to perhaps behave a little better in the boardroom then you can get away with sometimes on the sporting field. And I'm not sure who the umpire is in the boardroom, but perhaps sometimes we take it out on the umpire, on the sporting field. And we can use a bit of verbal jousting a little more flexibly on the sporting field. Although that's got a bit more disciplined as well. But there is no doubt, I mean, there's lots of key things. On the board, whilst everyone is there collectively in the interests of the shareholder and the best interests of the company, you also have your particular roles as well. And it’s similar to a sporting field. Whilst everything that you do is in the best interests of that team and how that team is going to perform, it’s not a selfish individual approach. But you also have a very sort of specific individual role. So on a board, whether it be the committees that you represent, the particular skillset that you bring to that board. But overall, it's for the outcome of that company, in the best interests of the shareholders. Or the sporting team, for that matter. 

BENNETT MASON 

Now, your former coach was the legendary Ric Charlesworth and he's been very complimentary of you. He once said you were the best player in the world at your position and also the most resilient. Where do you think you got that resilience from? And do you think that resilience has also assisted you as a businesswoman and as a director? 

JENN MORRIS 

I think everyone would agree that at the highest-level things can be pretty tough at times. They can pretty be pretty tough collectively. And also, if I was honest, there's a level of vulnerability. You can doubt your performance. You can doubt the contribution that you're having at times. And I'll be honest, I always feel like that. I think high performers always have that little feeling at times: “Am I am I doing enough?” I think with Ric, in particular, and perhaps he's not dissimilar to people like Andrew Forrest, is that regardless of what has been achieved, it's always about the next thing. It's always about something much higher, harder. And it's not about comparing yourself to the opposition. It's actually this unrelenting pursuit to improve and to do greater things all the time. So that environment automatically puts you in to a position of stress. And that's where stress, if you work through it, can create some amazing things. So for me, I often talk about resilience, and everyone says we need resilience. But as you rightly asked is: “What is it and where do you get it from?” And so for me, I think it comes from setbacks, actually. I think you have to, anyone that hasn't had a setback, obviously you want to mitigate how deep those setbacks go. But anyone that hasn't had a series of setbacks, either they're telling a few fibs, or they haven't pushed themselves hard enough or far enough. So, I think the first thing is, I’ll always take anyone on my team that's had setbacks. Then the second part to that is, you have to have people around you that will still back you in. That faith component. People that encourage you to move forward. And then you have to have that courage, that personal courage, because stepping forward never guarantees your success. But with without stepping forward, you'll never, ever know. So for me, I think it's always trying to push the envelope a little bit. Having enough of a supportive environment around you that encourages you. But then ultimately it does come down to your ability to just take that step forward. Someone once said to me: “Take the job that no one wants sometimes.” And I know that when I was working my way through Deloitte, which was an enormous and fantastic learning environment for me, I loved my time at the firm. There was always challenges there and that was stepping ahead into areas that I was really unsure of how I was going to achieve what I needed to achieve. But I think if you are supportive to other people, then generally you'll get that support back from people. So, it's the people around you. But it's being brave enough, I think, to put your hand up to do something that perhaps you haven't done before. 

BENNETT MASON 

Let's speak a bit about that. You mentioned Deloitte a moment ago. You were a partner there and then suddenly you were invited to join the board of Fortescue, which was your first listed company position. Fortescue is not just one of Australia's biggest companies, it's one of the world's largest mining companies. How did you end up on their board? 

JENN MORRIS 

I've done seven years there. It's been incredible. It was a total out-of-the-box opportunity, really. I had been a partner. I'd been at Deloitte for ten, 11 years and had been a partner for three or four of those. And I got a call out of the blue from a couple of the directors, and I also said: “Hmmm, that's interesting.” I've done some work in mining at Deloitte, but it would be not unusual for Andrew Forrest to have a very different approach to things. And what I found out later was that his request for some new directors on the board, he had two selection criteria. One, he wanted someone from any industry except mining, and he wanted someone that had achieved something of significance not once, but then gone and repeated it with the same or a higher level of success. He didn't care what it was. So mine was, I guess, two gold medals. And I wasn't a mining engineer or hadn't come through the mining as a background, as a main background of my career. I'd done a bit of work. Andrew said that he had a lot of mining, financial, audit, risk-type people on his board, but he also wanted some difference on the board. So, I had a long chat with him over a couple of days and did explain that I couldn't leave the big four firm.  I couldn't work at a big four firm as a partner and also be a non-executive director on a listed company for obvious reasons. To which he said: “Why not?” And then he said: “Well, resign. This is the greatest company in the world. Come and join.” I'm summarising, obviously, but essentially that's what I did. And I think a lot of people thought, what on earth am I doing? And Fortescue's an incredible company and they're doing some amazing things in there. And once again, my career moved off in an in an unplanned way. And that's probably my style. Sometimes I get on the edge of the springboard and when there's an opportunity, I'm sort of about experiences and I've gone on to all sorts of things that perhaps I hadn't planned when I was a partner at Deloitte. 

BENNETT MASON 

What were your first board meetings at Fortescue like? Was it a bit daunting at all? 

JENN MORRIS 

It was certainly daunting then. It was more than a bit daunting. You've got some very serious, senior people. And the complexity and the scope and the breadth of what a company like that is dealing with is large, it's significant. And also, at a time when there was further development happening. Obviously, a few years ago, it moved into renewable energy and that's been a big and important change. So yeah, those board meetings, there's a hell of a lot of learning, there's a hell of a lot of listening. And once again, it comes down to that preparation, spending time getting to understand how the place rolls and doing as much prep as you can in the lead up. And of course, it's absolutely intimidating. It's kind of the fun of it. If you're someone that likes that feeling of a little bit of internal anxiety at a heightened level. It certainly gave me that. 

BENNETT MASON 

You mentioned Fortescue moving into renewable energy. You've done a lot of work in your career on climate change and sustainability issues. At Fortescue, you're on the Risk and Sustainability Committee and you're also on the board of Liontown Resources, which wants to produce minerals for electric vehicles. How do you think you've seen directors’ approach to climate change issues develop over time? 

JENN MORRIS 

I think long term is probably a good example where, we are in the middle of building the plant for our Spodumene plant, north of Perth. And if you look at that right from the get-go, the energy requirement, 65% will come immediately from renewable energy. So, even if you went back three, four, five years ago, regardless of what you were mining, even though Spodumene has been used for the renewable world, without a doubt. But four or five years ago, it wouldn't have had an ambitious target of supplying 65% of its energy brought by renewables. And not all companies are doing that. Liontown, we've made a very conscious effort that we'll start at 65% and then from there we'll move on to look at supply and all of that energy requirements by renewables. So that's a change in of itself, I think. And the other big change is obviously the much broader remit around ESG. I think there was a lot of activity around the Modern Slavery Act and the human rights requirements and supply chain due diligence. That's probably where it started. But when you look at ESG, it's very broad and governance has probably always been there. There's been a responsibility and an understanding that the good companies work well with communities. And then mining's obviously got the elevated concern with heritage and how we work with that. But climate has been the big one that has come to the fore in more recent times. Now, people, I think, companies are at different levels and they're grappling with: “Well, what does that mean?” And I think if I look at the last even two years, Fortescue's been an outlier. It’s really been driving ahead. But I know that when you deal with proxies or the investor market, the analysts, once upon a time it was: “Well, what's your target?” Whereas now it's moving very clearly, as it should be, to: “Well, targets are one thing, what's your pathway of getting there? Of what you’re claiming your target is going to be? Is your target robust enough? Is it just abatement? Or is it genuine intensity or emissions reduction? And then what's your pathway to get getting there? And then what's the level of investment? And have you made an allocation in the provision for that in your budget?” It's all of it 

BENNETT MASON 

This is something that a lot of boards are grappling with. Do you have any advice on how boards can set targets on climate change issues? And then how they can measure and assess those targets? 

JENN MORRIS 

Well, if I take a step back. The first thing is when we look at ESG broadly, a lot of companies are doing lots of good things. So, the first thing is getting down what you're doing in the first place. I work at obviously a couple of smaller and private companies, and we've just been going through and setting the ESG target. And when you look at all of the areas, and I can talk through that perhaps a little bit later, there's a bunch of things that companies are already doing. But you're right, perhaps the more complex, more difficult ones are around climate. And it's also, there's a level of reporting. Every week or every month there's new legislation or new reporting requirements. So, the first thing to do is, in the in the industry that you're in, identifying those legislative requirements and the reporting requirements. And then there's a level of compliance that you need to work out as well: “Where do we fit in and what are we doing?” But then you really need to be - it's about moving the needle. And I think you can't do all things, but if you're doing fewer things and focusing on: “Well, what is it? And where can we focus on our climate work?” For example, not everyone's going to be able to do what Fortescue's doing, in allocating billions of dollars to decarbonisation. But there are areas where you can be making a difference and should be making a difference. So, I think it's not one- size-fits-all at all. It has to be what's appropriate for the size and the industry that you're in. 

BENNETT MASON 

I mentioned earlier that you were on the Risk and Sustainability Committee at Fortescue. Just to really get into sort of the nuts and bolts of being a director, how does that committee look at climate risk? Is it incorporated into the existing risk framework or is it something outside? 

JENN MORRIS 

Obviously, we have an overarching risk framework, but we very much have a dedicated climate and sustainability approach as well. But they are not separate, because that would not make sense, but they are built up. Obviously, there's so many risks. In fact, we had a committee meeting yesterday for Fortescue, of which one was the Risk Management and Sustainability committee, and it's getting larger and larger all the time for all companies. And Fortescue's no different. So, there is no doubt that a level of work is done to build up all of the climate risks and the sustainability risks, but it absolutely sits as part of the overarching risk matrix for the company. Because it has to, and I think that's appropriate. But they are significant and broad ranging risks that get more complex all the time. In fact, if there's one area in a company, particularly of Fortescue's type and scale that's getting bigger and more complex all the time, it's this area. 

BENNETT MASON 

Just one final question on climate change and sustainability. We know a lot of directors are worried about risks around greenwashing. It’s an issue that regulators, investors, all sorts of stakeholders are looking at. Do you worry about greenwashing risks? And what advice do you have on what sort of due diligence boards can do to avoid the risks around greenwashing? 

JENN MORRIS 

When I say I am concerned about it, I think it's a big, big issue. And I think more and more it's going to be called out. And I'm very, very wanting that to happen. When you've got companies, there are big dollars involved, it's critically important. And I think the companies, to be honest, that get it right, there's an economic business case that this makes sense as well and they'll be rewarded. But it needs to be a really big focus. Where companies are actually greenwashing, they need to be called out and there needs to be sanctions associated with that. Particularly where it's been, I wouldn't say actively done, but companies sort of know if they're doing the right thing or they're not. So I think for me, having a very strong focus on it, from a governance point of view, and that the powers to be keeping an eye on is appropriate. One, because it's not doing what we need it to be doing, in terms of for the climate. And then the companies that are doing the right thing actually need to be rewarded. Or at least people that are actively doing the wrong thing, through greenwashing, need to be called out. Where this gets difficult is it's quite a complex beast. And you need to sort of get underneath what companies are doing and what they're claiming. And then I think there's plenty of greenwashing going on. 

BENNETT MASON 

That's fascinating. But let's pivot quickly to another issue for boards. Two of the companies you're involved with, Fortescue and Sandfire, have appointed new chief executives this year. And of course, CEO succession is one of the board's key responsibilities. Do you think there's a “secret” to getting CEO succession right? What sort of things do you look for in a potential future candidate? 

JENN MORRIS 

You hope you always get it right. It's the board's number one and most important job, I guess. There's no doubt that. Of course, you want to have planning for it. And companies can do it quite well. That there's an obvious internal candidate that's been planned for some time. I think in my experience, things can move pretty quickly in a company. And the type of CEO or leader that you need, of course, is very dependent on where that company is at and where that company is heading. And if I look at Sandfire, for example, Sandfire went from an incredibly successful but one asset in our backyard in WA, in the jurisdiction that we all know. And low, no debt. To a company that now has a global footprint, with assets that's about to be operating in Botswana, and one very large one in Spain, and with a number of other landholdings in other places as well. So that company's very, very different to where it's at. So, where we landed, and Brendan Harris has now been in the job for a while. We had a very clear brief of where the company was, where the company was heading and what that meant from a CEO point of view. So that's how that was sort of formed. But a lot of effort and time and thinking had gone into that. So, I think it just depends often where the company is at. If you can have good planning, and generally you should, and you know of when a CEO's time is ready for the next one. If I look at Fortescue, Fortescue has gone through enormous change which got to, with Fortescue Future Industries and Mark Hutchison is there. We have Fiona Hick now running the metals part of the business. Two, three years ago could we have had a very clear, obvious plan for a CEO? Two or three years ago? No, because I think it's changed. It's changed so quickly. So sometimes I think you have to be a bit more agile than an obvious traditional style of getting ready for the succession and planning for that years in advance. 

BENNETT MASON 

Both Fortescue and Sandfire named outsiders as their new CEOs. We don't need to get into specifics and name names, but what are the advantages of appointing leaders from outside of the organisation? 

JENN MORRIS 

Once again, sometimes there is an obvious, great candidate and that makes sense. I think outsiders, they always bring a different perspective. There’s pros and cons isn't there? Sometimes I think it's important as soon as a new CEO gets in the seat, for them to understand very quickly the lay of the land. And not be coming in and wanting to make changes immediately without understanding how it rolls. Obviously, an internal candidate has a view on that, but they may also have a certain masked view on that. I think if I use Fiona Hick as an example, she has come in, she has a great leadership style where she's very, very keen to listen, understand from the people. And then make some informed views and then changes from there. So I think that mixed with: “What's going right? Why is this company so fantastic? But then here are some of the things that I've observed that I think we can make some changes on from prior experiences.” So, I think it's a nice, healthy tension to have when you bring someone in with some outside views. And in my experience, if I look at Brendan Harris, Tony Ottavino at Liontown and Fiona Hick, they're all doing that fantastically well. 

BENNETT MASON 

Let's jump over to sports now. Jen, you've obviously had a long history in sport, both on the field and off the field. We mentioned at the top you were an Olympian and a gold medallist with the Hockeyroos. But later on, you also served on the board of the Australian Sports Commission. You've also been a board member with the Fremantle Dockers too. Do you think being a director with a sporting organisation is different to being a director at a company or an NFP? 

JENN MORRIS 

I think there are some key principles which of course, are the same. You want great governance, you want excellent strategic thinking. You obviously want the financial books to be well looked after. So, all of those things are really important and the same. I think where it gets a little bit different, perhaps it's a little bit similar with publicly listed companies. But something like professional sports bodies, particularly the AFL, everyone has a view. So that can perhaps have you dealing with things in the public that you may not in in other companies. But broadly they shouldn't be that different. But everyone, if there's one thing that turns intelligent smart people into lunatics at times, it's sport. And there can be an emotional sense of heightened excitement about being involved with an AFL club. I think that that perhaps makes it a little bit different. If I look at the Australian Sports Commission, it's different again. Because it's perhaps in some ways not as high profile, but it's enormous amounts of government money, but it's an independent body. But you still have to, when you're in there, let's be honest, whilst you're independent, you have to have a view on the political government side. Because you don't really want to be saying too much against the government, even though you're meant to be in there leading with an independent lens. So, the Australian Sports Commission does an incredible job, particularly for our Olympic athletes, and pays for all the funding and preparation of our Olympic athletes. But that can be challenging as well, I think. And as for the Fremantle Dockers. Well, someone said to me the other day that we're the most unsafe beach in Australia because Fremantle still has no flags. So, I'm a long-suffering supporter. 

BENNETT MASON 

I'm sure the Dockers’ day will come eventually. 

JENN MORRIS 

We hope so. 

BENNETT MASON 

We've seen a lot of high-profile culture issues in many of the Australian sporting codes over the years. Do you think these issues are just reflective of the broader culture? Or is there something going on with sports governance in particular? 

JENN MORRIS 

I think you could say that sporting teams are a microcosm of the broader population. We hear that all the time. Do I have that view? Well, that's not an inaccurate view. But I do think that perhaps at times, sporting people can in some ways - they're exposed to the world because the camera is on them all the time. So perhaps their behaviour is more obvious to see than other people. The other side of it is, and I do sound like I'm sitting on my fence here, they’re protected a little bit as well. I have a view and I know it's not easy at times. They're just sportspeople. I hear it all the time, but it's not a choice to be a role model or not. When you're in a high-profile sporting team, getting paid lots of money, there's a reason why you're getting paid lots of money. People turn up and watch you. Sponsors join, TV rights are earned, that's why there's money there. So, I totally understand that some people are better role models than others. But the minimum standard is you are a role model, and you have a minimum standard of behaviour that you need to uphold. And that's just how it rolls. And I don't think there should be any exception to that. 

BENNETT MASON 

What about the makeup of boards in sports? You're obviously a former athlete. We also have coaches, fans, all sorts of people who end up on the boards of sporting organisations. Do you have a view on what the makeup of boards at sporting organisations should be like? 

JENN MORRIS 

I think it's like anything, it's a mix. You need people that are to do specific jobs. You need people there that understand finances and understand them very well, for example. But of course, if the subject matter of that board is sport, then you need people that understand sport. Obviously, what's ideal is that you have people that have come through their sporting, athletic career and also have a business or another related career as well. That would be ideal. So, I think it's a bit of a mix. Certainly, on something like the Sports Commission board, there's been a mix of athletes, a mix of sports administrators and a mix of businesspeople. And a mix of government people, and I think that's appropriate. So, I don't think it's all one way, but you need a bit of both. 

BENNETT MASON 

What are your thoughts on how success is measured in sports, and for the boards in sports? On one hand, you've got gold medals, flags, grand finals. But boards have to be concerned with more than just on field success. And how do you think boards can balance that with good governance at the same time? 

JENN MORRIS 

I think good governance is a starting point. I think often we refer to a lot of sporting organisations and we think of the professional sporting codes. If I look at my time with the Australian Sports Commission, it's a very difficult environment. You've got this federated model where you have state-based sporting organisations, there's the federal Australia-wide, national-type sporting organisations. And often the problem is that you end up with multiple boards across the country trying to represent one sport. Why do people do that? It’s because WA feel that New South Wales and Victoria are bigger than them and if it was one national body only, the smaller states would miss out, etc. But you end up with, I think, a lot of inefficiencies because the governance isn't solid, and it isn’t national. And corporate sponsors, if a bank wants to come and sponsor a team, they generally want to deal with one board, to have that negotiation. Not then find out that there's 22 different boards that sit underneath that. So, I think that makes it difficult. So, in that sense, I think having better governance for sport would have a better outcome. Particularly for the sports that struggle, perhaps, through a financial, commercial point of view - compared to other sports. In terms of success. Well, my view is good governance and behaving appropriately and how you win is critically important. But there is no doubt that winning on the sporting field, you ask any AFL club, you have a great day, a great season on the sporting field, then generally the money, the merchandise, the tickets, the memberships, the sponsorships are coming through the door. So, one is very linked to the other. But if you look at something like the Sydney Swans over the years and the culture that they had and that they have, has been driven internally. One has supported the other, I think. They've looked after their community well, they've set expectations of what they expect of their players and how they behave. And one supports the other. I think where possible, of course you want outstanding performance on the sporting field, but you want outstanding performance internally. And people behaving appropriately,  

BENNETT MASON 

I Should say, Jenn, that about a week before we recorded this podcast, I saw your Fremantle Dockers soundly beat my Sydney Swans at SCG. Sticking with sport just for a moment, we now see diversity on the field in Australian sport in lots of ways. But often that diversity is not reflected in the boardrooms for sporting organisations. How do you think we can look to address that? 

JENN MORRIS 

Just address it, just open your eyes. I mean there are so many talented people, women, men, younger, older that can appear on sporting fields. We've come a long way and people are constantly looking for diversity. And the question remains, why do we want diversity? Because research shows that if we have, and it's not just diversity, you have to create an environment where people feel comfortable to contribute. If you do that, problem-solving, coming up with better ideas, always works better if we're not all thinking the same. So the problem is, if we have a bunch of people that all think the same, then -- Of course, we all do it. We all endorse, look for our own type, because that's how we feel most comfortable. So I think we've come a long way, but there's a long way to go. It's not just the balance of numbers.  It's the balance in the power that sits in a room or sits at the top. We're getting there, but I think we still got a long way to go. 

BENNETT MASON 

We were talking about diversity in sporting boards then, but I suppose the same could be applied to other boards as well, right? Listed companies and others everywhere. 

JENN MORRIS 

Everywhere. I think we’ve have come a long way, as we've said, even in the corporate boardroom. I think we then just need to, it's that inclusive nature. So, it's one thing to have the balance of numbers in a boardroom. As long as all discussions that happen outside the boardroom are also an inclusive-type nature. And it's not just rewarding a certain power imbalance. It's not just the numbers, it's also how we equally acknowledge that that diversity has a beneficial part to play when we're discussing issues and making decisions. 

BENNETT MASON 

Jenn Morris, we might leave things there. We're nearly out of time, but thanks so much for speaking to us here at Boardroom Conversations. 

JENN MORRIS 

My pleasure.