Boardroom Conversations with Audette Exel

Season 2 Episode 9 –  Audette Exel: Social entrepreneurship in action, learning from mistakes, and the board’s role in promoting philanthropy

Audette Exel AO is the Chair of Adara Group and a director at Westpac. She’s also a former board member at Suncorp and ex-Chair of the Bermuda Stock Exchange. We discuss: Adara’s mission & purpose, learning from mistakes, and social entrepreneurship in action. Plus, what can boards do to better promote philanthropy?

Transcript

BENNETT MASON

Hello and welcome to Boardroom Conversations, a podcast from the Australian Institute of Company Directors. I'm Bennett Mason and thanks so much for listening to us. In each episode we’ll have candid conversations with some of Australia's top directors, leaders and experts. We're going to delve into their background and discuss many of the key issues that boards are grappling with. Our guest this time is Audette Exel AO. She's the founder and chair of Adara Group and a director with Westpac. Audette is also a former board member with Suncorp, ex-chair of the Bermuda Stock Exchange and managing director of the Bermuda Commercial Bank audit. Thanks so much for joining us today.

AUDETTE EXEL

Thanks for having me. Delighted to be here.

BENNETT MASON

So, let's start, if we can, by talking about Adara. Some of our listeners might not be familiar with what it is and how it works. So, can you tell us how and why you founded Adara?

AUDETTE EXEL

Sure, goes to the heart of my career and my life and my directorship journey, as well as my executive journey. So Adara is quite an eclectic organisation. I set it up 26 years ago. Simple concept that people found it hard to wrap their minds around at the time, which is that I would hire brilliant development specialists and create an international not-for-profit and allow them to focus entirely on evidence-based best practice service delivery to our neighbours in some very faraway places and create a funding mechanism at the same time for the INGO, the international non-government organisation, which would be a corporate advice business. Hire brilliant bankers and put them to work in the markets to make money relentlessly, but this time not just for their shareholders or themselves, or not for their shareholders or themselves, but to hand it across the hall to their development colleagues. So, we are a very early example of social entrepreneurship in action. We're now quite a significant INGO and very well known in our areas of expertise, in very remote places. And we're also one of the leading independent corporate advice businesses in Australia. Out there every day making money, the little engine that good, to make sure that our INGO work and our service delivery to people in need is funded. We also have some incredible donor supporters who've stood with me, some who've been with me and with the Adara for the whole quarter of a century journey. So unusual model, unusual funding structure. But if you like, a foot in the camps of some of the most privileged people in the planet and some of the most marginalised, and so it makes for a wonderful, complex, but wonderful life.

BENNETT MASON

What was it about that model you found interesting or appealing? There's obviously many charities, many structures, but what was it about this particular structure that stood out for you?

AUDETTE EXEL

Well, for me it was a function, a manifestation of a belief that had grown in me over years of a very lucky career. So, I'm a social activist, born and bred at heart. Human rights have always been stood at my centre. And I studied law because I wanted to be an officer of the court, thought that that would be the way that I would express my belief that equity was the thing that we should be fighting for, and equality. At the end of my law degree realised, oh my goodness, I don't understand money and power. So stepped into the capitalist empire, if you like. The dark heart of the capitalist empire, law and banking. And had a very lucky career through big law firms, into running a bank, a publicly traded bank, chairing the stock exchange, as you mentioned. But for me, all the time thinking about this imbalance that we see expressed in our world. And after I'd had the privilege of not just advising balance sheets, but then running one, the time was ripe for me then to try and manifest this fundamental belief I have that if we want to affect change in our world, one way to do it is to bridge divide. And in fact, Adara’s tagline is “bridging worlds.” And so, by setting up Adara and deciding to work with, on the one hand, Wall Street, if you like, investment banking. And on the other hand, people in extreme poverty, in very remote places, was a way to manifest my beliefs that you can bring those two worlds together. So, it was a new model. It's still an unusual model. I made a lot of mistakes, and I've iterated all the way. Luckily, I've been joined by hundreds, thousands of incredible people to help make it work. But the reason I set it up was to try to fundamentally manifest this concept that you can bring those two worlds together. And without getting too geek-ish about this, in terms of the not-for-profit sector, the other thing I really wanted to have a very good look at was the funding structure of not-for-profits. So even the best not-for-profits in the world spend their lives looking up at their donors and trying to please them, rather than being able to focus on their immensely complicated work. And so, and I had been running a bank, so when you run a bank, you think a lot about what's called ALM, asset liability management, and the margin in between. So, when I started to bring that ALM thinking to the not-for-profit sector, I realised, gee, the model is actually quite dysfunctional in many ways. Because you have these capricious, sometimes capricious short term donor dollars. But if you're doing human social service delivery, you have very, very long-term responsibilities to the client groups that you are effectively serving. And so, this was a way, a new model, and my way of experimenting, if you like, to see if I could change that paradigm a little bit. It's been a bit of a journey of joy and tears. But I'm proud to have done the work, and I'm proud to work with the people that I do as a result of it.

BENNETT MASON

You mentioned the joy and the tears and how you'd made mistakes over the last 25 years. I don't want to dwell on the negative, but what were some of those mistakes? And what do you think you learnt from them?

AUDETTE EXEL

I made so many mistakes. If I cast it in business terms. Because I know we're talking to, I love the AICD, I think it's a great organisation, has a really great pool of people that benefit from its work, businesspeople principally. So, if I put it in business terms and think about mistakes. To begin with, because I was working outside of silo, people think in silos, their brains run down particular tracks. And this was a very unusual construct. So, it took me several years to figure out how, if you like, to brand it and to explain it. And so, I spent years with people saying: “What? What the hell are you doing, Audette? Are you running a charity? Are you running an investment bank? Like, is it a tax dodge? Bermuda, like? And what kind of business are you doing?“ And I would say anything that you would pay me for, basically to start with. So, it took me a few years to figure out how to explain it. And even now, sometimes people are a bit cross-eyed when I'm explaining it. Although I think I've got better at capturing the concept. So, I had a lot of branding challenges. On the development side, international development work, enormously complex and difficult. I came to it with the hubris and ignorance that is, belonged to me at 35, and woke up in the middle of various disasters and realised I had no idea what I was doing. And that I needed to hire people who are absolutely expert in complexity, and the business. And in fact, this is relevant to what's happening today, I think, in terms of business moving into the not-for-profit sector in many ways, is that business often comes believing it has the answers. I did too. It took me a while to wake up and realise, actually, not only did I know nothing, but it's genuinely dangerous to interfere in the lives of vulnerable people when you know nothing. So, there's a series of mistakes that I made by rushing, light-hearted ones like the first thousand latrines we ever threw out, because I was desperate about wash work and health and sanitation. 970 of them becoming goat sheds. People taking the tin off the roof and the only poo in the place being goat because the basics of germ theory and disease and finding out what community actually wanted, rather than imposing on them, ala the intervention. So light-hearted ones, more serious ones where I rushed with neonatal experts. So, we work with babies born too soon and very small birth weight, low birth weight babies. Where I was so desperate again to provide a solution without listening and thinking to experts, that we rushed medical equipment into hospital settings that didn't have consistent electricity supply. And actually, disastrous consequences. Babies not living, babies dying as a result of that. So, across that spectrum. In the business, trying to find the right niche for the business, how to differentiate ourselves, but how to compete in the A-grade. Really hard when you're the little guy with a weird structure. Hiring decisions, firing decisions. Oh, my goodness. Across every part of the spectrum of what it is to run, manage, lead an organisation, I have made mistakes. And sometimes I think one of the things that's interesting for those of your listeners who are directors at not-for-profits. One of the things maybe that will resonate with them is not-for-profits are made to compete for donor dollars. And therefore, it can be actually career limiting for them and in fact, existential for them, to talk too much about their mistakes. And so sometimes because of our model, because I've got Adara Partners, the business, there is the little engine that could, we relentlessly talk about our mistakes in great detail, in the areas that we have that are of expertise. And as we look at our data as it unfolds, and sometimes I think maybe that's going to be our greatest contribution. Because in some ways, being able to help others by saying, here's the ten things that we did that caused horrific, set us back, caused horrific consequences, were just terrible mistakes and community mistakes in the business. Maybe by taking years of other people's learning time, we're going to help the world that way too. So, maybe part of my legacy. Well, a big part of my legacy. Maybe the most important part will be mistakes. And I'm kind of good with that. We need to talk more about our mistakes and what we've learned. We need to do that in boardrooms in Australia as well. The success shine that we all want to polish, both on our CVs and on our companies, sometimes takes us into pretty bad places, I think.

BENNETT MASON

I wanted to ask you about the structure of Adara Group and the role of the two corporate advice businesses. You've got Adara Advisors and Adara Partners. Can you explain that structure and then also the governance around it to ensure that there is that oversight?

AUDETTE EXEL

Yeah, really good question. So, Advisors was the first business I set up 26 years ago, and I built that business, doing placement work, which makes you the kind of cockroach of the financial services ladder and doing big deals in the insurance banking space. Because I'm weirdly interested in that. And because I was in Bermuda for 14 years. Adara Partners is the current business. It's an evolution of my thinking. I launched it nearly ten years ago, and it's a better mousetrap. So, Adara Partners is owned by a trust company for the benefit of the NGO. So, if I have a personality bypass, there is no way I can get my hands on the money. I've wrapped governance and structure around that because it's clearly the greatest line of attack, if you like, against us, if we don't have really good governance in place. We have a full Australian financial services license. We compete head-to-head with the major independent boutique, advisory firms and investment banks. So, we have to be cleaner than clean. The other thing that's really, interesting about Adara Partners is our model, is that we have now 18 of Australia's most famous investment bankers and corporate advisers and senior NEDs. Many of whom are Fellows at the AICD. They're on a panel. They're on our AFSL, they work for Adara in pairs across their competitive boundaries, and they lead major engagements with corporate Australia for us. So, for instance, Matthew Grounds, who needs no introduction to most people in the financial services sector. And David Gonski, they did the first engagement that we ever had, for Wesfarmers who allow us to describe to explain that they're a client. Extraordinary experience, the pair of them working together to lead deals. So, it's with all 18 of them. They work in pairs, and I mix them up. Active investment bankers with senior non-executive directors. Or we've got three really outstanding, very, very senior lawyers on the panel. So, we might put one of them with a retired investment banker. It depends on the mandate. But I think it's the only investment bank or corporate advisory firm in the world, actually, that has a model where the leaders in the sector, entirely without recompense, can use their brilliance. These men and women are brilliant at what they do, to advise on some of the biggest things that are happening in corporate Australia, with all fees and proceeds going to vulnerable clients. So, it's the model and I have a small but mighty team of investment banking types inside Adara, sitting right beside development specialists. And their job is to look after our clients and our panel. But mandate by mandate we're generating revenue for our work with people in poverty. But we're also showcasing pro bono investment banking, if you like, and how you can use the skills of the market to affect social change.  So, the whole thing is wrapped up in a whole lot of governance.  Conflict process, more chief risk officers and chief compliance officers than the Australian banks. Than you ever knew. Very, very thoughtful, spent a lot of time with ASIC to get the approvals to do this. And the panel are very, very thoughtful and careful about conflicts, about process. So, we have wrapped it in governance structures that ensure that there's high integrity at every level of it. And as a result of that, here we are, as I say, heading towards our 10th anniversary, and we have done some of the largest transactions in corporate Australian history, with some of these leaders who have loved working across their competitive boundaries. But the governance is actually, the governance of it and structure, I spend a lot of time thinking about that. It underpins everything, because in the end, all you have is your reputation, right? The biggest companies and the littlest companies know this. We all know it as directors. So, I knew we had to keep our reputation at the highest, highest levels. And governance underpins all that for us.

BENNETT MASON

I'll ask you one more governance question because, hey, we are an AICD podcast. Within the Adara Group there’s also Adara Development, which has a board. That board is extremely diverse and it has got members based all around the globe. What do you look for when you're recruiting for board members at Adara Development?

AUDETTE EXEL

The Adara board is actually a series of boards. So, we have entities in Nepal, Uganda, Australia, Bermuda, the UK and the USA. And so, each of them have boards. I am the chair of all of those boards, but obviously a minority on all of them. And we built them over the years. And it's interesting, they love to work as one giant global board. So, we have board meetings at times that are just horrendous for one end of the spectrum or the other. And I've offered them many times if they want to run the board meetings separately and they don't. They like to work together as one giant, so we run these contemporaneous board meetings. Unlike a lot of not-for-profits, I decided right at the outset I don't want board members who are there to fundraise. I want board members who are there for two reasons: to help us think, and to keep us safe if there's a disaster. And so, if I look at those two objectives, I'm really happy with the composition of the boards. So, in terms of helping us think, we have enormous diversity. We have some very, very senior neonatologist, for instance, global health specialists. We have a woman on our US board who came from the most remote region that we work and she's extraordinary. Yangchen Lama and she came out through a scholarship system into, first Kathmandu and then into the US education system, and is now one of the leading private wealth advisors in America.

So, she actually has lived experience of the work as well as understanding the business context. We have people who represent communities, and cultures that we're working into. We have some very, very senior businesspeople, Ilana Atlas, Jo Brennan, in Australia and others. So, it's a really diverse board and in terms of the helping us think, gosh, they've helped us think. And because they listen to each other and they come from very different perspectives, they're all very, very senior. And in terms of keeping us safe, they are all, to a man and a woman, incredibly passionate about Adara. And I know, that if something happened to me, when something happens to me, it's probably a better way to put it. And I finally go toes up, after all these years of an amazing life, that group of people will help steer the organisation with our wonderful global leadership team to whatever comes next. Because they care. And in fact, if I may just riff a wee bit on this theme. I have a lot of people, like all of us do, who want to have a chat about: “Could I have a cup of coffee and talk about what it means to be a director?” And: “How do I be a director?” And a lot of people will say to me: “Oh, everybody said I should get on a not-for-profit board first and try it out.” And I say to them: “Well, what are you passionate about?” And they’re surprised. And I say: “The worst thing you can do is get on a not-for-profit board because you think it's good for your career, not because you care about the mission of that organisation.” What do NFPs need? Very skilled people who love, love, love what they do. And that idea that it's a stepping stone. Being a director on an NFP is enormously complicated. So, I'm lucky. I feel like when I look at the boards, they represent who we are, what we do at the highest levels, and gee, they've helped me think over the years. They've helped all of us think.

BENNETT MASON

Adara funds and manages development projects all over the globe. And they're in extremely remote parts of the globe. So how do you, here in Sydney, and how do the boards oversee those projects? It's not like you can pop down the road and do a site visit.  They are very, very far away. So how do you know what’s going on? How do you ensure that there is that oversight?

AUDETTE EXEL

Well, first of all, we're really close to the work. I chair the risk committee at Westpac and much to their horror, I think, last year I said: “Oh, by the way, I'll be gone for the next 25 days, and the only way you'll be able to get me is satellite phone, because I'm walking to our most remote project, which is a 25 day walk from the nearest road.” But luckily there is this little airstrip. And then you walk for about, for me, about eight days up and back. So, first of all, we're close to the work. Secondly, we have large, extraordinary teams of people, who are hired in-country, incredibly expert. And we've worked with them for years. So, we're close to the work, we have brilliant teams. And thirdly, we have really deep monitoring and evaluation. We stare at our data in the face, with great honesty. So, and that comes from a belief, I think, through the whole global leadership team, certainly for me at the start, that the poor are entitled to quality service delivery. There is no suggestion in Adara that near enough is good enough. So, if our results, if our data. So, we started with household-level baseline surveys in our most remote projects all those years ago. If our data is telling us that we are not turning the dial the way that we should be, or things are going backwards, or there's an issue every single month, every period, every quarter, every half, every year. And certainly, every year in terms of our big strategy sessions, we start with celebrating success, and then we get right into the knotty work of: what is the data telling us, what is our monitoring and evaluation telling us? What are our teams telling us? What are communities telling us? What can we do better? We know the work isn’t in a straight line. But so, there's an entire process: governance, finance, the same as any country. I don't believe it to be the case that the only countries that have corruption issues are low-income countries. I think there's immense corruption, wherever money is involved. But we have finance teams, not only on the grounds in the countries we work in, but central finance teams in the global support hub here in Australia. We have legal teams. We bring diligence to our work to the same level that corporate Australia should be bringing diligence to their work and understanding what's going on with their numbers, their balance sheets, their rule of law or governance structures. And so, I think if you bring the seriousness of intent and then you create the infrastructure and the structure, you have a very good chance of being able to create well-governed work. And as an example of being close to the work, I'm going to be in Singapore with Westpac in September, and I'm going to just take that opportunity, hop on a plane and whip up to Nepal. And I'm going to spend a few days with them. I'm not going to get up to our most remote project, but with lots of our senior team, we're going to be doing some workshops on what's happening with quality data on education, what's happening, in terms of what we're seeing coming out over the retrospective on the last 25 years. In November, I'm going to leap on a plane. I'm going to whip over the Uganda, I'm going to spend a bit of time with those teams. And our teams worldwide do that. So, I guess back to the most important thing. We have extraordinary teams on the ground of great specialists, but we have a structure of governance, accountability. That blows right through the organisation, no matter whether you're sitting in the United States, Australia or remote Nepal or Uganda. And so far, so good in that regard.

BENNETT MASON

So far, so good. I want to just shift slightly and move on to the broader area of philanthropy. You've long been a champion of philanthropy and of corporate giving. The proportion of Australians contributing to charity has been declining for many, many years. Why do you think that is? And do you think that trend can be reversed in Australia?

AUDETTE EXEL

Gee, I hope so. You know, it's interesting. Everybody has a different viewpoint on how you encourage people to understand that giving will enhance their life beyond measure. I've never been a believer that wagging my finger at someone and telling them what they should do is the right way to motivate change. I've been working with behavioural scientists for a long time. Doesn't work. I hope maybe to inspire people, by telling the story of what my life has been like since I kind of created a structure that allowed giving to be at the heart of everything, and also hope that the model will show people these things are not siloed. Philanthropy is not something you do when you go home at the end of the day. Running a business with purpose or leading a life with purpose is a 24/7 occupation. And it's just so much fun and so enriching. Hard sometimes, but fabulous. What do I attribute it to? We're living through a cost-of-living crisis that we need to pay more attention to. So, there's that. I think we're seeing globally, I'm worried about geopolitics. I'm worried about the rise of nationalism dressed up as patriotism. We're seeing a retreat in our thinking about our neighbours, not only our neighbours in our own country, but our neighbours far away. And that worries me. You would think that Covid would have taught us that we are all intimately connected, right? And that it's really important, for instance, that public health be looked at and looked after at every level, whether you're in a low-income country or you're in the wealthiest country in the world. But actually, perversely, what it's done is make us retreat. So, there is a little bit of a rise of “them and us.” We're recording this at a time when there's a lot of rioting happening on the streets of England, fuelled by a lot of kind of hateful disinformation. But what's it telling me? It's telling me, gee, there's a lot of inequity in the world. There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of hatred, and there's a retreat into this kind of “them and us” mentality. And we see that here, too, and we need to stand against it. We need to speak every single day about why giving enhances and uplifts your life. We need corporates and their boards to understand this isn't philanthropy in its purest sense. This is social licence to operate. Role in community, role in environment, role with our staff. We have responsibilities, role with our shareholders, across this very wide range of stakeholders. And as we see, when you see corporate disasters happen, if we are not looking after all that range of stakeholders, woe betide us when something goes wrong, and we actually need a bit of support. So why do I think it is? Multiple factors. Do I think we need to stand up every single day and say: “Hey, giving changes your life ten times more than it changes the lives of people who need it. But it also changes the life of people who need it.” And actually, it doesn't matter to me if it's arts or - it can be anything. Just give. And so, we need to keep telling that story. We need to keep reminding people, that we live in a global world. And we need at our board tables to remember we have societal permission to operate, and we need to meet all their expectations. And philanthropy, giving, purpose is only one piece of that, but it's an important piece.

BENNETT MASON

What are some practical steps that directors can take to encourage philanthropy and giving at their organisations? Is it as simple as pretty much instructing management: “Hey, the organisation needs to give more”? Or are there other actions that directors can take?

AUDETTE EXEL

Oh no, a much wider variety of actions than that. I would put it under the bucket of purpose. And so, I think that directors can start with: what's the purpose of our organisation? Why are we entitled to operate in Australian society or globally wherever we operate? Why? What's our entitlement? What's our purpose? And then, who are our stakeholders and what do they need from us? So, I’ll give you an example on Westpac. We're living through a cost-of-living crisis, hardship management. Fair access to financial services in good times and in bad, critical. Right? So, is part of that the Westpac Foundation? Yes. Wonderful. Westpac scholars, wonderful. But there's a much wider purpose piece there, in terms of what's our role in society. Look at our Reconciliation Action Plans. That to me, that's all part of the same game. It's not, as I say, it's not giving separate to the business. It is the purpose of what we do and meeting all our stakeholder needs and ensuring that tally is evened up across all the stakeholders. So, what's that role? Enormous. The other thing I'd say is individuals. What's our role? Be a role model. Did you see that the just launched a wonderful, new launch recently of “She Gives”, encouraging women to stand up and talk about what they're giving to. So, that's role modelling. So, all of us in our own way, need to think, how do we model for people? How do we use our great privilege? How do we use our positions of power to make sure that not only are we helping run great businesses, but actually we're helping run great businesses that are great for society. So, it's a mindset if you like.

BENNETT MASON

We talked a lot about Adara, and we've spoken a lot about philanthropy. I wanted to spend a bit of time speaking about you and your career. Now, on top of Adara, as we said in the intro, you were previously on the board at Suncorp, one of the nation's biggest insurers. And you're now on the board at Westpac, which is one of the world's biggest banks. What made you want to join those?

AUDETTE EXEL

Those particular ones? Yeah, I'm very lucky in Australia, to have these two great companies. It's a purpose piece for me. So, I'm interested, my life is about thinking about how power works and how power structure shifts. And I think all the time about: what's my best use? And so, when I was invited with Suncorp, insurers they protect things that people value. Insurance is really important. One of the things you see, the insurance community gets an awful lot of flak. When there's a catastrophe, a natural hazard, a catastrophe, gosh you've never seen an organisation rise like I saw in Suncorp. It was beautiful the way that people just drop everything to help others, their neighbours in need and the importance of that at times of trauma. When insurance bites, when it's needed, usually there's something really problematic happening in somebody's life. The house, their office is flooded, their house is burnt down. They're dealing with hailstones that just wrecked their car and they're an Uber driver, whatever it is. So, for me, insurance is just an enormously important social good. And I feel the same way about banking. So, when I was offered the chance to sit on the board of Westpac, in this climate. So, I've been on Westpac now coming up to three years. In this climate, the banks having gone through the Royal Commission, in an age of rising inequity, in an age of incredible cost of living crunches, these enormous systems that are the banks have a huge role to play in making people's lives better. And Westpac is one of the great relationship banks. And if you can have a voice, be lucky enough to have a voice in the direction that an organisation like that takes. You might actually be using your skills for some good. I hope I am. So, for me, I'm not a career NED. I've never wanted to build a portfolio. Adara has been the centre of my life. But these directorships that I've taken, for me have been different ways to look at power and to see if I can influence change. And what a privilege it is to be able to do it. As a social entrepreneur, and then do it at the top levels of corporate Australia at the same time. So that's why I said yes to those two.

BENNETT MASON

I guess my next question then is: how do you fit it all in? You talked about Adara as the centre of your life. You're travelling to Nepal, Uganda, elsewhere. And at the same time, you've got these board roles in corporate Australia. Do you have any advice on time management, diary management?

AUDETTE EXEL

Yeah, people keep asking me about, these days it's all about balance. And I'm like: “Oh, don't talk to me about balance. Talk to me about passion.” And some people are much better at figuring out balance than I am. Do I have advice? First of all, do things that you love. Even in the worst days - and there have been some very, very bad days - I have never wanted to do anything other than get out of bed and get back at it. And that's because I love what I do, and I feel the work is meaningful. That's a critical piece of it. If you've got a passion for what you do. And I am as passionate about the role I've got at Westpac and chairing the risk committee, which was a huge learning curve for me, as I am about coming to work at Adara. I have got, I'm thankful for the amazing team that help me do this, including a brilliant EA. But managing a calendar is incredibly important. And being able to figure out where you've got to be and when. But it's not boring, I tell you. So, I can go from a meeting, an in-depth meeting on Adara Newborn and issues that are happening around continuous positive airway pressure with new newborns, straight into a Westpac Risk Committee meeting talking about cyber risk. Or straight into a meeting with a client pitching a deal for our amazing panel. And at the end of the day, yes, sometimes I'm exhausted. And now I'm 61, I'm probably more exhausted than I was ten years ago. But I'll tell you what, it's not boring. And life is short, so, I think you just got to get at it, as long as you possibly can.

BENNETT MASON

Is it a different mindset, though, when you go straight from a meeting with Adara, then into chairing the risk committee at Westpac? Do you have to think about the issues differently?

AUDETTE EXEL

It's interesting. They complement each other. It was funny. David Gonski, who's on my panel, who's an amazing man. He and I were having a chat this morning and we were talking about diversity. And he said to me: “One of the things I love about being involved with Adara Partners is, Audette, you force me to be diverse in my thinking.” So, we can be talking deals. And he said: “I’m the chair Barrenjoey. So, I talk deals all day. And then all of a sudden, you're talking climate change, glacier melt and mudslides and landslides. So that forces me to think in a more diverse way.” And so, I think that's probably right for me, too. I think when you're a NED, you should bring, if you can, your combined experiences to the board table. But mostly you should bring an open-minded curiosity and understand there's so much to learn. Certainly, I've learnt that there’s a hell of a lot still to learn. And keep your brain open because things are never as they, necessarily as you might think. So, is it a different mindset? Maybe. I think it all fits together for me. Am I a different person? No. In Adara, generally I'm not wearing shoes. I'm only in shoes right at the moment because you're here. And I do wear shoes at Westpac. So, I make a little bit more of an effort, not to be a complete scruff when I'm in the halls of Westpac. But I try to bring my whole self there, like I try to bring my whole self here. And both seem to compliment the other.

BENNETT MASON

The listeners obviously can't see us, but I can confirm that you are indeed wearing shoes today.

AUDETTE EXEL

I remember an interview that I did years ago. This lovely man turned up to interview me, and he came early. And I was walking around in bare feet. So, I bumped into him as he was arriving and said: “Oh, nice to meet you.” And somebody then took him off into the room where we were going to have an interview, this quite senior journalist. And I ran to my room and whacked on a pair of shoes, and he started his article talking about how I came to the meeting uncomfortably perched atop a pair of highly shoes after he'd seen me walking around in bare feet. I think it's easier just to be yourself, right? Maybe that's a function of age as well. There's so much image. The Dalai Lama has this beautiful saying, which is: “We live in an age where there's much in the window, but nothing in the room.” And, when I think about that, the profound truth of that. Forget about what's in the window, forget about the image. Go to what's in the room, go to the substance and bring that with you everywhere you go. And in the end, you'll be fine.

BENNETT MASON

I think that's a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Audette. You've been, terrific today. Thank you for sharing stories about yourself and Adara. It's kind of you to make the time.

AUDETTE EXEL

Thank you. Lovely to talk to you.