Boardroom Conversations with Arlene Tansey and Heith Mackay-Cruise

Episode 12: Arlene Tansey & Heith Mackay-Cruise – First board positions, shifting from executive to director, and the importance of mentoring

Arlene Tansey FAICD and Heith Mackay-Cruise FAICD are company directors and board members at the AICD. We discuss their first board roles, the shift from an executive career to being a director, and the importance of mentoring. Plus: how should you decide which boards to join? This special episode of Boardroom Conversations was recorded live at the AICD Staff Summit.

Transcript

BENNETT MASON

Hello, it’s Bennett Mason here from the AICD. We’re doing something a little bit different with this episode of Boardroom Conversations. The podcast you’re about to listen to was recorded at the AICD Staff Summit, earlier this year. It’s a discussion with me and two of the AICD’s board members, Arlene Tansey and Heith Mackay-Cruise. The conversation was packed full of insights, so we decided to turn it into a podcast. I hope you enjoy listening to it.

We're delighted to be joined by two of our AICD board members, Arlene Tansey and Heith Mackay-Cruise. Arlene is a director with ASX listed companies and NFP organisations. She's mostly concentrated on the tech and telecommunications sectors. Heith is a company director with ASX listed businesses, NFPs and private equity. He is primarily focussed on education, media, and technology. And you can read more about their bios on the AICD website. And I should add to you in the audience, questions are very much welcome. You've all got the app on your phones, I trust. So please submit some questions into the app and using this handy iPad, I'll try to weave some of those questions into the conversation. So, Arlene and Heith, thanks again for joining us. We like to begin the podcast always by speaking to our guests about their professional background. So, let's begin this morning with your careers. You were both senior executives before you took on board roles full time. Tell us a little bit about your first board roles and why you wanted to become directors. And Arlene, I might start with you, if that's okay.

ARLENE TANSEY

Okay. Can everybody hear me, okay? Okay, great. So, I had the great opportunity to sit on boards while I was still working. My first board was a not-for-profit. I had a little habit of sort of following Belinda Hutchinson around, who's a very well-known director. So, she was retiring from the Royal Hospital for Women Foundation. So, I followed her there. I then followed her when she went to EnergyAustralia from Snowy Hydro. I followed her there. So, my first boards were really from some very close working relationships and people that I knew. And then I think what happened after that for me was really that I had a very market-facing role. So right up until 2020, every board I ever joined, someone knew me, someone had worked with me, and it was a very warm kind of introduction.

BENNETT MASON

And what about you, Heith? How did you join boards?

HEITH MACKAY-CRUISE

Yeah, actually very similar to Arlene. My first one, I was running a media company in New Zealand and about 15, 16 years ago I joined the board of the Auckland Theatre Company. A) because I had a passion, B) because I was a CEO of a media company and they wanted to promote the Auckland Theatre Company. Fast forwarding a bit, had I known what I know today, I probably wouldn't have joined back then. So, I joined for passion and very quickly learnt around the fiduciary responsibilities of a director. But I was lucky in my career, similar to Arlene, having been a CEO of a number of different businesses, that tended to lead me to directorships with a network of professionally minded people.

BENNETT MASON

Some of the people in the audience might be interested in joining a board one day, or they might already be directors themselves. What's your advice, though, on getting that first board position? How do you get it and what are some of the factors you might consider when deciding which board to join first? And I'll go to you first this time, Heith.

HEITH MACKAY-CRUISE

Sure. I think in my experience anyway, I think the first question you have to ask is why? Why do you want to join this particular board? It might be passion, it might be for career advancement, it might be for learning. So, I think once you answer the question of why that actually helps intrinsically through that prism and that lens, think about that first opportunity. The other part of your question was how do you go about doing that? I think networking is very important. So, I think networking, but also fundamental principles. We’re obviously at an AICD staff summit, so doing the Company Directors Course as a first principle and graduating from that, I think, is a great foundation. But also, it's networking. But linking back to that “why?” question would be my advice.

ARLENE TANSEY

I think that's great advice and I think a couple of things for me. And there are still the things that I choose on today. Do I feel a strong attraction to this business, this industry, this company? If I look at the board that is already there, do I bring something that is differentiated, where I feel I'm right for the board because I can add value? And then I would also say that in looking for a board, particularly your first board, your best resources are people who know you, people who have worked with you. They're the ones who have some insight into the contribution you can make and where you might be well-placed. So, I'm not the world's best networker, but I did find that asking for advice from people that I knew and had worked with was a very useful thing to do.

BENNETT MASON

You're now both very experienced board directors. How do you decide which boards to join? Are there particular sectors you focus on? Is there something about those organisations? I’ll go to you first, Arlene

ARLENE TANSEY

So, I had a very broad career across industries, and I have probably been told more times than I can count, that I'm one of the most curious people, that the people who know me know. So, I think that's what draws me. And it's really just a sense of having diversity in the kinds of businesses I work for because it keeps me interested. And I think it's a really big privilege if you can find people smarter than you to work with. So, I like working with smart people, but I love working with people who are a lot smarter than me. And so, I look for those things.

BENNETT MASON

That's what I like about the AICD. Everyone is very clever here. And what about you, Heith?

HEITH MACKAY-CRUISE

Well, I'd certainly echo Arlene’s comments and complementing those thoughts, I'd probably add two things. I think it is important to play to your strengths at times. So, I think in a portfolio career – sorry, a portfolio of boards in your career, you certainly want to have some where you can actually add more value and then there will be some where actually you're outside of your swim lane and you're learning quite a lot. And I think that's quite a healthy balance. But I think philosophically I always whenever I approach a board, you do due diligence, all that sort of stuff, you answer the question of why. But for me it's about legacy and impact. What impact can I make in my tenure and what will my legacy be? Because particularly when you join a board, give or take, it's average tenure of six to nine years. Sometimes more, sometimes less. So, what will be the legacy afterwards? And I think answering that question around impact and legacy right up front is absolutely key. Something I've certainly done for the boards I’m on.

BENNETT MASON

I'll try to get to some of our audience questions now from the AICD staff. There's a question here from Catherine. She's got a question about what is commonly referred to as “over boarding.” The question is: “Is there risk associated with a board member who is on too many boards? How do they remain focussed on each company?”

HEITH MACKAY-CRUISE

I'm happy to take that. Great question, Catherine. And I think look, at the end of the day, the heart of the question and the perception is around time management. But it's more than that. You don't go to a board meeting or committee meeting, or whatever the case may be, to do those particular hours. You're always thinking about the business. So, it's really important to be able to give thoughtful perspective time, going in and out of a meeting. There are many times you've got to make decisions or go into a meeting around decisions or come out of a meeting thinking about a decision that needs to be made. So, it's being able to actually have the time in your portfolio, in your diary, effectively. But at the same time, as many people in this room may know, when you join a board, it's not just the hours. It's, for example, Arlene and I sitting here today. There are many times when you actually engage with a whole lot of the stakeholder community that's not set on a piece of paper, when you sign up. It's implied and it's actually part of your own learning to understand the culture and the DNA of a business.

BENNETT MASON

Arlene, do you have a view on that issue of over boarding?

ARLENE TANSEY

It is a great question and it's one that I've had put to me a lot because I sit on half a dozen boards. What I try to do, I have terrible FOMO. So whenever anybody says: “Do you want to do this?” I go: “Yeah, yeah, what was that actually?” So that's part of what happens to me is I just want to do everything. But what I try to do is to schedule myself to about 65% of a full-time work schedule. So that gives me about 35% flex. You might be suspecting that my background has a lot of mathematics in it. So, you've got 220 workdays in a year. I take my board meetings, I double them for prep time. I add committees, I add travel time, and then I do the math and go for 65%. At the moment I'm at 68 because you've got to have the flex if something goes wrong. But I think people will make themselves as busy as they want to be, and you have to be responsible. And that means if I'm travelling and a board is meeting, I may have to be on the phone at 2 o’clock in the morning if that's how it works out. And I will say, Covid's made that a bit easier because people are a bit more accepting of you being travelling. Also, a lot of committee meetings now are done by Zoom, so I have taken out of my schedule some of the travel hours I used to have. But basically, you've got to set a standard for yourself of performance and doing your job, doing the right thing the right way. If you don't, people will know pretty quickly.

BENNETT MASON

Phil Butler, where are you? Oh, there we go. Phil Butler, our NFP Sector Lead, he's got a question about your careers and something that's common to many directors. You were, as we mentioned earlier, both senior executives before you began to focus full time on the boardroom. Was it challenging at all making that transition from CEO to board member? Obviously, the CEO is a lot more hands on, whereas for the director it's a different sort of role. Was that transition, as I said, challenging at all? Heith, I'll go to you first.

HEITH MACKAY-CRUISE

Great question. Phil. The short answer is yes, because you spend a large part of your life actually, working full time, climbing the ladder, being a corporate executive, being always on. And you are trained naturally to ask a question and answer it and do the answer. Whereas when you're a company director, you just ask the question. And I'm deliberately simplifying it, but it is a hard transition and I think perhaps the other part of your question, Phil, is how do you transition? And I think a lot of it is practice and learning by actually being with good, capable fellow directors and watching how they practice, and they learn. A lot of it is actually training and development. AICD courses and other courses as well. But certainly those, if I reflect on, I've been a company director full time now for about a decade. If I reflect on that first year, I did struggle, I did find it hard and then I found my kind of swimming lane and went from there.

ARLENE TANSEY

I would agree with that. And I would also confess that someone had to have a word to me on my, I think was my second board, and it was because it was right in my skill set. So, we were valuing the business for a potential float, and I couldn't help myself. And I just really wanted to get stuck into it. And I remember the chairman came to me and he said: “You know what, that's great, but it's not your job. And you're really going to have to have a chat with me about how to make your contribution and let management do their job.” So, I was highly embarrassed. I think it took a full box of Tim Tams for me to calm down. But I learned that lesson pretty quickly because I got it very wrong, right up front. So, if you're going to get it wrong, try and get it wrong early and try and do it with a chairman who's really nice and supportive.

HEITH MACKAY-CRUISE

Actually, can I just add to that? Because you've actually just given me a flashback. So, the same thing actually happened to me where I had the chairman on one of my first boards who actually pulled me aside. And the heart of the issue was we needed to change the CEO. And the chairman said: “Well, you know, why wouldn't you do it, Heith?” And that's when it really dawned on me that actually, I'm still acting and behaving like a CEO. That I’m seen that why and I need to kind of shift gears. So great question, Phil. I think it's something that it's not easy to do and you need to be very focussed on it.

BENNETT MASON

On the topic still of board careers, there's a question here about emerging directors and how they can find a mentor, I suppose, to help them with that journey. Do either of you have mentors and how can you find one to help you become a director? I'll get to you first, Arlene.

ARLENE TANSEY

Okay. I have lots of mentors, lots of people who are mentoring me who don't even know it, from Cicero to Albert Einstein. I've got a lot of mentors. But what I have found is that my chairmen are great mentors and great sounding boards. Other colleagues of mine who are directors on other boards are great sounding boards. And CEOs are great guys who are in the market, and women who are in the market today doing the job of a CEO, are wonderful people. And I ask a lot of people, what do you want from a board? What do you want from a director? What do you not want? So, I think you've got to reach out for it as well. The other thing I'll tell you is don't be disappointed if people say no. So, at the moment I have six people that I am mentoring. But I probably get asked three, four or five times a week for people who say: “Gee, I'd really just like an hour of your time for a coffee.” If I add that all up and added to that schedule I have, I just couldn't do it. And so, don't be disappointed if you ask someone and they say: “Look, I'd love to have a chat with you.” Even if they just say, and I do this: “Could we have a Zoom call for a half an hour?” Because I hate to say no. But do remember that it may have nothing to do with you. It may just have to do with busyness. And think about, again, I always come back to the best resources for you are people who know a little bit about you, who know you, how you work, how you think, how you participate.

BENNETT MASON

Heith?

HEITH MACKAY-CRUISE

I don't have a lot of regrets in life, but I've never really had mentors and through my professional career, I never had them. But I actually was very much seeking them out when I became a company director. And as Arlene said, there are some great chairs out there that have been incredibly giving of their time and I've learnt a lot from them and obviously still do today. So naturally as you become a director, when someone gives you that olive branch and helps you, you're naturally inclined to also give back. I might add, Arlene is the Chair of Audit and Risk, so she's very, very statistically focussed. I don't know what my time management is. 68%, maybe 70? But I do always mentor three people from three different kind of sectors.  One not-for-profit, one for technology and one for private equity. And these are emerging directors or CEOs. And I'm a big fan of mentoring actually. So having not had it in my early development years in my professional career to now having it today. I've certainly seen the light on it and it's something that there are many organisations out there that do mentoring, I think, very well. And you know, Phil, there's a number in the not-for-profit sector that just focus on philanthropic causes. So, I think for society, it's actually inherent around actually helping people.

ARLENE TANSEY

And can I add one little point, which is I think I learned more from my mentees than they learn from me. The people that I mentor are just so fantastic to learn from because again, they're on the horns of a dilemma or are struggling with things that are either not my current thing or things I haven't thought about. So, I learned a heap from those guys.

BENNETT MASON

That was Arlene Tansey and Heith Mackay-Cruise speaking with me, Bennett Mason at the AICD Staff Summit. We’ll be back with more episodes of Boardroom Conversations soon. Thanks so much for listening.